M422 thru 7823D knits color

[Mark Hutchins]

Knits shall be dyed to match the color of the jacket.

 

[mulceber]

Knits shall be dyed to match the color of the jacket.

Problem: the knits and the leather are supplied by two different companies, neither of which is the manufacturer. The manufacturer is only responsible for cutting the leather panels and assembling the jacket. So there's no way to verify that the color is anywhere close to a match until after the knits have been made and shipped out.

Mark, we appreciate your contributions to the forum, but ya gotta get it through your head that the specs only tell us how the jackets were theoretically supposed to be. There is a VAST gulf between theory and practice. If you need proof that jacket manufacturers routinely ignored spec, there is a legal case on the books where L.W. Foster argued (SUCCESSFULLY) in court that the government couldn't just start enforcing spec in 1958 when they had never cared about it before: https://casetext.com/case/lw-foster-sportswear-co-v-united-states-2

It's actually a shame that you resolutely insist theory and practice are one and the same, because the reality of how these jackets were constructed, the numerous ways they differed from each other and deviated from specification, is FAR more interesting than the specifications you keep waving about.

 

[Mark Hutchins]

There have been a lot of different jacket makers over many decades. The USN jacket is now 83 years old. They were always produced with dark brown knits that matched the color of the jacket.

The specifications are the specifications.

In the days of M422 thru AN-J-3A there were some differences in lining color etc.

I like those maker's differences because it helped identify an old jacket that is missing it's lable.

A Gordon & Ferguson, HLB, Willis & Geiger, Monarch, Fried Ostermann, etc, all have differences in property mark, windflap shape, throat latch shape, lining color, button size, pencil pocket design and so on. These differences do not include the color of the knits (when new).

There was never tan, purple, green, or red knits within the M422- 7823E series of jackets.

Period.

That some private buyers specify those kinds of things in repro copies is irrelevant to history and perfectly fine in the repro world.


I am just the messenger.

And, probably the only person who has spent weeks researching the origin and history of the USN jacket at the National Archives, albeit 30 years ago.

 

[Skyhawk]

It's cool to see the specs side by side in one place. I have them on my hard drive but never compared them all to each other at once.
One glaring point is the collar on the 55J14 It is the only variant to specify SHEARLING!! Then in the following AER-A series. goes back to mouton. This otta cuase an uproar around here. Does this give a reason for the curly black shearling on the some Cagleco jackets?

 

[mulceber]

I note that you did not address my arguments. You simply reiterated your own. That's not good debate or discussion.

There was never tan, purple, green, or red knits within the M422- 7823E series of jackets.

This is not correct. People like John Chapman and Dave Sheeley, who have actually taken these jackets apart, have said that they found knits that were red or purple, even in areas that were never exposed to sunlight.

 

[ZuZu]

It's cool to see the specs side by side in one place. I have them on my hard drive but never compared them all to each other at once.
One glaring point is the collar on the 55J14 It is the only variant to specify SHEARLING!! Then in the following AER-A series. goes back to mouton. This otta cuase an uproar around here. Does this give a reason for the curly black shearling on the some Cagleco jackets?
View attachment 131513

I had one of those Caglecos- some weird sheepskin- as you say almost black-seemingly immune to sun fading!

 

[B-Man2]

Forget the knits !!
I find it unbelievable that anyone could be so unyielding in their opinions, based on documents that we now know were intentionally circumvented by manufacturers in order to make the quotas specified in their contracts . As for the knits, all of them were vat dyed to the general specifications by their different makers. It’s a given fact that when dying materials in two different dye runs , dyed on two different days and they will have different tones and hues of colors . Yes yes yes Mark !!
Dubows were notorious for having original knits with a dull purple hue or tone . You just are being over the top with your alleged research and conclusions . We see Jorge’s NOS Navy jackets in their original issued boxes, being opened to light for the first time in 80 years with different colored knits.
We have some of the top jacket makers in the world on this forum who have done archive searches themselves telling you you’re wrong but still you persist in this matter . Sorry but you are wrong .
And yes the specifications are the specifications…… but that doesn’t mean everyone followed them.

 

[mulceber]

Forget the knits !!
I find it unbelievable that anyone could be so unyielding in their opinions, based on documents that we now know were intentionally circumvented by manufacturers in order to make the quotas specified in their contracts . As for the knits, all of them were vat dyed to the general specifications by their different makers. It’s a given fact that when dying materials in two different dye runs , dyed on two different days and they will have different tones and hues of colors . Yes yes yes Mark !!
Dubows were notorious for having original knits with a dull purple hue or tone . You just are being over the top with your alleged research and conclusions . We see Jorge’s NOS Navy jackets in their original issued boxes, being opened to light for the first time in 80 years with different colored knits.
We have some of the top jacket makers in the world on this forum who have done archive searches themselves telling you you’re wrong but still you persist in this matter . Sorry but you are wrong .
And yes the specifications are the specifications…… but that doesn’t mean everyone followed them.

Really good point that I hadn't considered.

 

[coolhandluke]

 

[YoungMedic]

There was never tan, purple, green, or red knits within the M422- 7823E series of jackets.

Period.

Always never, sometimes maybe. In all seriousness, have you read through the Navy jacket thread here? There are plenty of original examples with varied knit colors which have been vetted by subject matter experts. Your information is from your own admission 30 years old, there's new info available that was compiled over the course of months and in reality, many many years if you combine the knowledge base of the contributing sources . You should take it in

“A Better Fighting Garment…” 2.0 - A Revised Guide to the U.S. Navy's Intermediate Leather Flight Jackets

PREFACE In December 2021 Jan, Wei and I posted a thread entitled “A Better Fighting Garment…” - A Beginner’s Guide to the US Navy’s WWII-era and later Intermediate Flight Jackets. We wanted to fill a gap in the knowledge base on the forum and the thread was written as a “Beginners Guide”. We...

www.vintageleatherjackets.org

 

[Silver Surfer]

having owned [still have 2 m series, 1 g series] and handled quite a few, I can say that there were were significant difs in knit colors. some purplish, some very dark brown, some almost gray, and the kicker, some were reddish like aeros. the specs say.........and the reality says...... which do you chose to go with?

 

[mulceber]

A quote from JC:

Every jacket I’ve taken apart, from Dubow A-2s, to Aeros with red knits, I found that the color was –stronger—a shade in the inside, not brown. Even more bright! The knits fade more to grey than they become ‘red’ or purple.

These photos are all of jackets whose knits are original:

 

[Skyhawk]

And then there's the liners... from the M-422a Specs:

 

[mulceber]

And then there's the liners... from the M-422a Specs:
View attachment 131715

Yeah, if the specs said brown liners and a lot of Navy jackets actually have red liners, why is it such a stretch to think that the knits would deviate from spec too?

 

[Thomas Koehle]

A quote from JC:

These photos are all of jackets whose knits are original:
View attachment 131671
View attachment 131673
View attachment 131681
View attachment 131685

WOW!

I like the reddish-orange variant on the star ...

 

[Thomas Koehle]

Interesting discussion ...

i'd see a difference in sticking to general specs during "world-war periods" and periods of "normal" industry production without any shortages of material and without the urgency of equipping masses and masses of new recruits with proper garment and equipment ...

i can imagine that especially up to the 1950ies quartermasters haven't been that strict in any filing of complaints on a production run of several thousand leather-jackets because of a wrong or "out of spec" color of knitwear

meanwhile i'm at jacket no. 11 of M422 to G1 and most if not all later G1 variants i own or had handled before and still had untouched knittings where equipped with dark brown knitwear

i can't judge about the earlier variants coz the only wartime jacket i own is a Ed Church which obviously underwent a quartermaster refurb where liner and knits have been replaced but all later jacket had dark brown knitware

off coarse there is variations in the color tone and depths but dark brown

 

[ZuZu]

A quote from JC:

These photos are all of jackets whose knits are original:
View attachment 131671
View attachment 131673
View attachment 131681
View attachment 131685

I think th OP must understand by now. As Austin Powers said often- " I get it! I have bad teeth!"

 

[Chandler]

Interesting discussion ...

i'd see a difference in sticking to general specs during "world-war periods" and periods of "normal" industry production without any shortages of material and without the urgency of equipping masses and masses of new recruits with proper garment and equipment ...

i can imagine that especially up to the 1950ies quartermasters haven't been that strict in any filing of complaints on a production run of several thousand leather-jackets because of a wrong or "out of spec" color of knitwear

meanwhile i'm at jacket no. 11 of M422 to G1 and most if not all later G1 variants i own or had handled before and still had untouched knittings where equipped with dark brown knitwear

i can't judge about the earlier variants coz the only wartime jacket i own is a Ed Church which obviously underwent a quartermaster refurb where liner and knits have been replaced but all later jacket had dark brown knitware

off coarse there is variations in the color tone and depths but dark brown

I found the original knits to that Monarch if you want them. They're sort of magenta... JK.

But I do have them.

 

[Chandler]

Yeah, if the specs said brown liners and a lot of Navy jackets actually have red liners, why is it such a stretch to think that the knits would deviate from spec too?

But... I thought the brown was replaced with red when the pilot became an ace?

 

[Thomas Koehle]

I found the original knits to that Monarch if you want them. They're sort of magenta... JK.

But I do have them.

Awesome!

Yeah would like to have 'em - rest via PM