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Goatskin or Cowhide?
- Thread starter Len
- Start date
Atticus said:Len said:
Cowhide is like pornography. I can't really describe it, but I know it when I see it.
One of these G-1 sleeves is made of cowhide. Can you tell which?
AF
The far right sleeve is most likely cowhide. The other two have the typical pebbly finish associated with goat.
Jason
Active Member
Welcome Len! Nice to see another Aussie on the forum... think that makes 5 of us here now.
There was a point in time where I thought that I could pick goatskin from cowhide 95% of the time. Generally you will find sections of goatskin where the pebbly grain is rather fine ('small pebbles') and quite uniform which practically confirms it is goatskin, where as cowhide that has been embossed to look like goatskin lacks both the uniformity and the fine grain. Cowhide will also have sections where the fake goat-grain embossing isn't as prominent or has 'smoothed out' - particularly at stress points in seams etc - but then goatskin will do this too. Another point is that goatskin does tend to have a slightly more brittle and stiff 'hand' than the softer and more pliable cowhide of equal weight (thickness) - but again this isn't always so and depends a bit on the tanning & finishing methods of the leather.
And after close inspection of my Ralph Edwards 7823E, I'm not 100% sure its goatskin now.
Really, for a jacket that is post 1968-69 manufacture, you'd have to have the jacket in your hands to be able to tell, and even then I'd only be confident enough in 2 out of 3 cases to confidently say what it is.
You are right, cuffs and waistband are 95% of the time less than perfect on older - and even newer! - G-1s. Here's a few hints I picked up when getting them replaced:
1) finding matching cuffs and waistbands to the ones put there by the original manufacturer is very difficult - colour, weight etc are very tough to match, you might have to accept that you're not going to get even a close match. But if you do replace both cuffs and waistbands, try to ensure that they match one another in at least colour - and preferably weight and weave if you can.
2) when you do look for cuffs and waistbands that both match each other, make sure you ask how long the waistband is. Lots of waistbands out there are only 18 inches unstretched and thats not long enough to do a large G-1 at all. I'd suggest that if the jacket is a size 44 then you get a waistband that is at least 24 inches long unstretched (ie half the jacket size plus 2 inches). Also watch the waistband height measurement too - a too 'short' in height waistband will look totally wrong when installed.
3) finding someone to work with both leather and knitted elements is difficult. Most clothes alterations places run away in terror when you meantion leather. Most leather places will say "yeah sure mate, I'll look at it for you" - but beware, most leather places are only used to working with heavy leather, like belts & shoes & protective holsters for equipment etc not the more light weight garment leather like what we're dealing with here... and then they might never have worked with knits or linings along with the leather either...
4) you can opt for a 'quick and dirty' replacement where the original stitch holes are not reused and the new machine stitch line just runs, as accurately as is possible, over the old stitch line. Done well, you'll not notice the old stitch holes unless you're having more than a casual glance. Done poorly, it'll be very noticable with old stitch holes visible. For cuffs this can be gotten around by shortening the sleeves by 10mm or so, and creating an entirely new stitch line - but you can't do that with the waistband.
5) The other option is to have someone re-use the old stitch holes, but this is a very time consuming process and will cost more as it has to be done by hand, but ensures an 'invisible' replacement of the knit elements.
I've been all around my native Tasmania, and have found only two people who will do such work for me. One is the 'done by hand' guy here in Launceston and he is very good - but he has a 12-18 month wait to complete jobs. The other is in Hobart and is the 'quick and dirty' guy - he's as good as they come when it comes to following original stitch lines with his machine and is quite reasonable in price - but he refuses to do any 'by hand' work.
Someone, somewhere in Sydney should surely be able to do cuff & waistband replacements on leather jackets - its just a matter of finding them. They'll want to see the jacket in person to determine if they think they can do the job. Canvass them by phone first - any hesitation with the word leather and you should politely decline their services. Look into clothing alteration places, especially if they advertise alteration to leather garments, shoe repair people, car re-upholstery services, even smaller-sized leather furniture or other leather goods manufacturers. My 'good' person above is a general leather goods repairs guy (shoes, leather luggage etc) and my 'quick' person above runs a specialist leather shop (some clothing, mainly belts and accessories, some naked tanned hides etc).
Let us know if you find someone in Sydney that can do this sort of work if you go down that route. Also if you want the names of the people I found here in Tassie, let me know.
Good luck with your search and welcome to the addiction too!
There was a point in time where I thought that I could pick goatskin from cowhide 95% of the time. Generally you will find sections of goatskin where the pebbly grain is rather fine ('small pebbles') and quite uniform which practically confirms it is goatskin, where as cowhide that has been embossed to look like goatskin lacks both the uniformity and the fine grain. Cowhide will also have sections where the fake goat-grain embossing isn't as prominent or has 'smoothed out' - particularly at stress points in seams etc - but then goatskin will do this too. Another point is that goatskin does tend to have a slightly more brittle and stiff 'hand' than the softer and more pliable cowhide of equal weight (thickness) - but again this isn't always so and depends a bit on the tanning & finishing methods of the leather.
And after close inspection of my Ralph Edwards 7823E, I'm not 100% sure its goatskin now.
Really, for a jacket that is post 1968-69 manufacture, you'd have to have the jacket in your hands to be able to tell, and even then I'd only be confident enough in 2 out of 3 cases to confidently say what it is.
You are right, cuffs and waistband are 95% of the time less than perfect on older - and even newer! - G-1s. Here's a few hints I picked up when getting them replaced:
1) finding matching cuffs and waistbands to the ones put there by the original manufacturer is very difficult - colour, weight etc are very tough to match, you might have to accept that you're not going to get even a close match. But if you do replace both cuffs and waistbands, try to ensure that they match one another in at least colour - and preferably weight and weave if you can.
2) when you do look for cuffs and waistbands that both match each other, make sure you ask how long the waistband is. Lots of waistbands out there are only 18 inches unstretched and thats not long enough to do a large G-1 at all. I'd suggest that if the jacket is a size 44 then you get a waistband that is at least 24 inches long unstretched (ie half the jacket size plus 2 inches). Also watch the waistband height measurement too - a too 'short' in height waistband will look totally wrong when installed.
3) finding someone to work with both leather and knitted elements is difficult. Most clothes alterations places run away in terror when you meantion leather. Most leather places will say "yeah sure mate, I'll look at it for you" - but beware, most leather places are only used to working with heavy leather, like belts & shoes & protective holsters for equipment etc not the more light weight garment leather like what we're dealing with here... and then they might never have worked with knits or linings along with the leather either...
4) you can opt for a 'quick and dirty' replacement where the original stitch holes are not reused and the new machine stitch line just runs, as accurately as is possible, over the old stitch line. Done well, you'll not notice the old stitch holes unless you're having more than a casual glance. Done poorly, it'll be very noticable with old stitch holes visible. For cuffs this can be gotten around by shortening the sleeves by 10mm or so, and creating an entirely new stitch line - but you can't do that with the waistband.
5) The other option is to have someone re-use the old stitch holes, but this is a very time consuming process and will cost more as it has to be done by hand, but ensures an 'invisible' replacement of the knit elements.
I've been all around my native Tasmania, and have found only two people who will do such work for me. One is the 'done by hand' guy here in Launceston and he is very good - but he has a 12-18 month wait to complete jobs. The other is in Hobart and is the 'quick and dirty' guy - he's as good as they come when it comes to following original stitch lines with his machine and is quite reasonable in price - but he refuses to do any 'by hand' work.
Someone, somewhere in Sydney should surely be able to do cuff & waistband replacements on leather jackets - its just a matter of finding them. They'll want to see the jacket in person to determine if they think they can do the job. Canvass them by phone first - any hesitation with the word leather and you should politely decline their services. Look into clothing alteration places, especially if they advertise alteration to leather garments, shoe repair people, car re-upholstery services, even smaller-sized leather furniture or other leather goods manufacturers. My 'good' person above is a general leather goods repairs guy (shoes, leather luggage etc) and my 'quick' person above runs a specialist leather shop (some clothing, mainly belts and accessories, some naked tanned hides etc).
Let us know if you find someone in Sydney that can do this sort of work if you go down that route. Also if you want the names of the people I found here in Tassie, let me know.
Good luck with your search and welcome to the addiction too!
Thanks for the info Jason. I'll do some searching here and post what I find.
You' re right about the addiction part. At first I was just looking for a G-1 because I liked the look of them. But now it's become about authenticity so I'm really trying to pick a legit one. Sellers, (I'm mostly looking on ebay) who know what they've got seem to post the right sort of photos with their listing including close ups of the label. Other sellers just take a couple of ordinary photos. Is it they don't know the value or they couldn't care less? In any case I guess it's always a bit of a leap of faith - you can't touch it or try it on before you buy.
Anyway, this forum is a good place to confirm if you've been done or have come away with a winner!
You' re right about the addiction part. At first I was just looking for a G-1 because I liked the look of them. But now it's become about authenticity so I'm really trying to pick a legit one. Sellers, (I'm mostly looking on ebay) who know what they've got seem to post the right sort of photos with their listing including close ups of the label. Other sellers just take a couple of ordinary photos. Is it they don't know the value or they couldn't care less? In any case I guess it's always a bit of a leap of faith - you can't touch it or try it on before you buy.
Anyway, this forum is a good place to confirm if you've been done or have come away with a winner!
Hawkeye
Member
Roughwear said:
There was an excellent step by step photo article on changing G-1 knits two VLJ incarnations ago, but alas, it was lost with everything else during the moves. I don't know who posted it, but if they are still members I'm sure everyone here would appreciate it brought back.
