Fact or Flattery? Do we want Fair Critisism?

[Ken at Aero Leather]

B-Man-2 Said in an overnight post.......

I understand there are many here who feel that certain manufacturers cross ethical marketing guidelines, and use this forum to market their products utilizing the guise of providing information, which enhances their products over their competitors.

This was probably aimed at me.

Did I push Brett to declare whether AVI jackets were made in Denmark or “elsewhere”? Yes, guilty as charged, but did AVI try to hide the fact they were made in Pakistan? Yes. Probably because the same jackets were available on Amazon for 1/3 of the AVI price direct from the manufacturer

Re Headwind.

On the 28th April Jay listed Headwind amongst the contenders for making “The Best M422”, I saw the post, smiled, said nothing. Same day Jay posted pics of this contender. Page one

http://vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/m422-best-manufacturer.20885/

Again I said nothing even though it was obvious that the jacket was very poorly finished, check the photos, compare them to some of the other makers

A full Two months later Stanier wrote

The work seemingly produced by BK, now Headwind and the other chap I can’t remember but posted the other day(!) seems at least comparable to John’s work

I couldn't believe what I saw when I compared the two makers jackets (Excluding BK) so I responded

I fear not and right now these are leagues behind Goodwear
to be honest, members of VLJ need to be far more critical of some of the jackets showing up on here..............I'll post attachments if requested to
On the other hand
I've never see a single example of John Chapman's work that we'd reject at Aero but I've seen plenty dodgy jackets on here that have been given rave reviews

Check the pics, fair comment? I think so and stand by what I said
What thanks did I get? Very little but plenty Dog’s Abuse

"Kings Suit Of Clothes"?

Bottom Line.............
If anyone want's to check back I've been complimentary about far more of Aero's competitors than I've ever been negative about other maker's products

Do we want a forum that excludes fact in favour of flattery alone?

If you say yes, be careful what you wish for ..........

 

[Flyingplanner]

Ken-I certainly value your input because you bring a professional expertise built up over a long time that many of us lack. I don't see you using the threads to market your own brand.

I do find that some of the more vociferous contributors ( not naming names) appear to " big up" certain new makers selling at lower prices, I wonder whether they have some connection with the sellers or are they trying hard to justify there own purchases despite the obvious flaws in the product.

 

[Roughwear]

If someone has splashed out quite a lot of money for a jacket they usually try hard to justify their purchase even if they may be aware of inaccuracies in it jacket. This does not mean they have a link to the makers or financially benefit from promoting their jackets on VLJ.

 

[Thomas Koehle]

This should be an open forum giving room to everyone to share his thoughts, ideas, questions, ...

I see it is always “sensitive” as a manufacturer of exactly the products which are discussed in a forum to share knowledge or to point out flaws and shortcomings on products of other makers.

But so far I did not had the impression that you - Ken - did promote your stuff with just turning other products down or misjudgment just to give your jackets a better platform. Thx for your professional input.

I’m a proud person convinced about what I do and i would be proud like hell about my skills if I where in your shoes.

 

[blackrat2]

Personally and I’ve said it before, this site seems to take any opportunity to snipe at people
Yes we all have different views, you only have to look at the “Fit Thread” but I think we still need to be understanding of each others opinions and maybe less wanting to slate someone
The site is set up as we share the enjoyment of flight jackets by and large, maybe take a step back and be constructive and share knowledge, rather than how some of these threads have gone

 

[Geeboo]

agree " Ken-I certainly value your input because you bring a professional expertise built up over a long time that many of us lack. I don't see you using the threads to market your own brand."
agree "But so far I did not had the impression that you - Ken - did promote your stuff with just turning other products down or misjudgment just to give your jackets a better platform. Thx for your professional input."

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

If someone has splashed out quite a lot of money for a jacket they usually try hard to justify their purchase even if they may be aware of inaccuracies in it jacket. .

Fair enought, but if nobody points out the construction flaws for the manufacturer to see how will that manufacturer ever improve?
Just Check DD's website, look at the finish around the neck area from his early "Acro" to his latest/current work. A huge improvement and yes, I did speak to John privately about the early work at the time but that critisism has no doubt helped improve Dave's work 100 fold

I understand there are two schools of thought re "Faults"

Inaccuarcies : For instance (and purely as an example) over the years I've seen more negative posts regarding the missing number on Lost Worlds Dubow label than I've ever seen complaints about the workmanship, which is superb

Poor Workmanship / Stitching : I've seen plenty of jackets with carefully selected components and beautful leather getting rave reviews despite often being put together in a very amateurish fashion. I doubt if I need to name these, just scroll though the pics with your critical hat on

I'd go for Lost World's every time

 

[B-Man2]

B-Man-2 Said in an overnight post.......

I understand there are many here who feel that certain manufacturers cross ethical marketing guidelines, and use this forum to market their products utilizing the guise of providing information, which enhances their products over their competitors.

This was probably aimed at me.


Did I push Brett to declare whether AVI jackets were made in Denmark or “elsewhere”? Yes, guilty as charged, but did AVI try to hide the fact they were made in Pakistan? Yes. Probably because the same jackets were available on Amazon for 1/3 of the AVI price direct from the manufacturer

Re Headwind.

On the 28th April Jay listed Headwind amongst the contenders for making “The Best M422”, I saw the post, smiled, said nothing. Same day Jay posted pics of this contender. Page one

http://vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/m422-best-manufacturer.20885/

Again I said nothing even though it was obvious that the jacket was very poorly finished, check the photos, compare them to some of the other makers

A full Two months later Stanier wrote

The work seemingly produced by BK, now Headwind and the other chap I can’t remember but posted the other day(!) seems at least comparable to John’s work

I couldn't believe what I saw when I compared the two makers jackets (Excluding BK) so I responded

I fear not and right now these are leagues behind Goodwear
to be honest, members of VLJ need to be far more critical of some of the jackets showing up on here..............I'll post attachments if requested to
On the other hand
I've never see a single example of John Chapman's work that we'd reject at Aero but I've seen plenty dodgy jackets on here that have been given rave reviews

Check the pics, fair comment? I think so and stand by what I said
What thanks did I get? Very little but plenty Dog’s Abuse

"Kings Suit Of Clothes"?

Bottom Line.............
If anyone want's to check back I've been complimentary about far more of Aero's competitors than I've ever been negative about other maker's products

Do we want a forum that excludes fact in favour of flattery alone?

If you say yes, be careful what you wish for ..........

Ken
I was very emphatic that I was not taking a shot at anyone on the forum. In fact my concerns were that if this type of thing continued we would loose people like you and Jay and in my opinion that would be a loss for the forum. I felt that we as a collective group needed to be less critical of guys like you and Jay who are attempting to reproduce jackets thru a process of trial and error using 100 year old photographs as their only blueprint. I realize sentivities are running high at the moment but your interpretation of my post completely missed the mark. If anyone else interpreted my post this way then I need to go back to school and learn how to write with more clarity. Sorry

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Ken
I was very emphatic that I was not taking a shot at anyone on the forum. In fact my concerns were that if this type of thing continued we would loose people like you and Jay and in my opinion that would be a loss for the forum. I felt that we as a collective group needed to be less critical of guys like you and Jay who are attempting to reproduce jackets threw a process of trial and error using 100 year old photographs as their only blueprint. I realize sentivities are running high at the moment but your interpretation of my post completely missed the mark. If anyone else interpreted my post this way then I need to go back to school and learn how to write with more clarity. Sorry

No B-Man-2, I need to appologise to you, not the other way round.
Perhas I'd become sensitive after so many pot shots being taken at the messanger........and there's no word for "sensitive" in The Gaelic, so excuse my error :>)

The rest of my post still stands

 

[johnwayne]

Pat on the back for B-Man2 for apologising and his overall comment. One of the big problems on a forum such as this where it's all keyed in comment, much like texting etc is that it can read differently than word of mouth as there's no tone! A jokey comment therefore can be read and upset one person but amusing to another. Personally Ken I've always found your input very constructive especially as you've had more years experience than most if not all here and I'm well aware too your business is founded on your passion, the same goes for the GE, JC and I'm sure DD and others. However, personally if I was about to order a new repro then I would be unlikely to order one that is likely to made in some far flung place by an 'operative' with little interest except getting their wage. That is not a put down on those such operatives who are poss paid peanuts to feed their loved ones and deserve more than they are paid but if I'm wanting the best I expect to pay for it. Ultimately I'd have more faith buying a jacket from someone I believe is passionate about their art and in it for the long haul than someone just seeing an opportunity in the short term.

 

[ButteMT61]

Funny thing this. I've only been in this jacket "hobby" for about 9 years. In that time, I've had a lot of jackets - not nearly the number as some here for sure! Every major maker - respected maker - sans, ELC, has had a home here, if only temporarily.
Every bloody one of them has/had flaws that made me kinda shrug - esp after years and 1000's of posts on them here and elsewhere.

I personally accepted that this is what you get when not buying jackets from RRL or other mass-produced label. I grew to appreciate it.
I have jackets here now that I could photograph from our fave makers that show flaws no better or worse than what's been posted here lately. Expensive jackets!

So would I give a new jacket maker - one that comes in at 1/2 the price and 1/x the wait a bit if slack? Yup.
I think I have one jacket here - a Lost Worlds "A-1" as it's an A-1 inspired model - that might just have every stitch, etc. perfectly laid down. It's kind of amazing, really. And oddly, LW gets (got) a lot of crap here and elsewhere simply because people didn't like Stu's demeanor.

Lately, this place has turned into a snake pit. It's off-putting and embarrassing. I don't think anyone or any jacket is above constructive critique. But I could paste together a couple pages of Jr High school level drivel as of late.

I think everyone is guilty of overlooking something when some poor sap waits Gawd knows how long to get an expensive jacket (expense being relative of course) and I might think it looks shabby on him/her, but they love it. Who am I to crap on the thread? I normally choose not to comment unless someone specifically asks for it. And then, I TRY to be kind with any criticism(s).

I'd like to see us provide some support to new and older makers alike. I think new guys attempting to do this are to be admired.
Can't we all just rethink the 'tude?

 

[Juanito]

Funny thing this.

Lately, this place has turned into a snake pit. It's off-putting and embarrassing. I don't think anyone or any jacket is above constructive critique. But I could paste together a couple pages of Jr High school level drivel as of late.

Isn't that the truth--it is embarrassing.

 

[Teddy]

I've recently given some thoughts about what I considered an "aggressive behavior" from Ken and have come away understanding Ken's perspective better. It makes sense to me that the forum should avoid pure flattery and promote constructive criticism. Otherwise it does no one good. I'd like to say that despite my previous disagreements with Ken, I welcome and appreciate your critique. I also welcome the same from the new players such as Jay and Steve. Passion sometimes come into play and hurt our pride, but if the comment is honest and to the point, we can all put pride aside to learn from each other.

In the spirit of this, and since Ken's criticism on Headwind comes from Steve's M422a's being ranked among the highest standard in the market, I'll post a detailed review thread once the temperature cools down here in central Europe (hopefully early September). Experienced members can demand what photos they'd like to see and I'll post them. This way we have a fair evaluation of jackets and repro manufacturers instead of flattery or pure excitement. Consumers have a better picture. Repro manufacturers can also learn in a constructive manner.

 

[Skyhawk]

I think this is a good thread to kind of clear the air around here. It has not been as positive of a place as it always has been here lately and I would like to see this change.

I don't believe any maker here is solely in this for the money. We all love vintage style leather jackets and enjoy making creations that we are proud of in the end. I do not believe that any maker is 100% perfect on every jacket. Some mistakes are never seen and don't make it out of production. Smaller discrepancies have to be assessed by quality control and a call must be made if the jacket is good to go, or if it needs to be fixed or remade. Every company must decide where their tolerances are and stick to these levels, or the overall quality of the jackets suffer.

So yes every jacket maker has jackets that will have small discrepancies occasionally, this is the nature of humans making garments. I have worked as a machinist at a boot manufacturer and I can tell you, even the most seasoned machinist makes mistakes once in a while. I have seen a machinist with 22 years experience blow a double stitch line so bad we had to throw away the boot.

I think that criticism is a good thing and when it is constructive is can be a great help. On the other hand, I think that hypercritical criticism aimed at destroying a makers reputation is a destructive practice that does no good at all. Except maybe for the entertainment of the folks that are in cahoots which is pretty crappy IMO.

There are so many layers to this situation and the blame can not be placed on any one member. I have been here on the forum a long time. 10+ years. I always take criticism into consideration and in the past, I have learned from some points and I have ignored others that were just sniping comments. There comes a point when one cannot ignore certain things and when it gets to that point, a response must be made. I don't like getting pushed to that point and I feel it has started to approach the realm of bullying. I wont stand for that.

This is the greatest forum in the world for vintage leather jacket info! Hands down. It used to be a relatively positive place to come visit. Please lets get back to the important thing here that makes this forum #1. Let's drop the egos we are holding on to so we can hold out a helping hand instead.

Best Regards To You All,
Jay

 

[B-Man2]

Jay
I’m all in with this!

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

My point all along is that we should be totally honest and when attention is drawn to an error, or a bit of poor stitching, it's time to own up, not go on to defence mode.

Otherwise it ends up like the "Jeremy Corbyn's Wreath" saga which does nobody any good at all ..........but it does insipre column inches by the hundred......or posts in VLJ's in this case :>)

For instance : As far as I'm aware I've only posted pics of two jackets on VLJ that I've made personally, and it was me that pointed out the errors on both myself

The errors on my 17 year old A-2 (now 18) (check the 17 years of hard wear thread) and on the Goldsmith sample were both admitted up front

there are a couple of bits of stitching less than pristine, one inside, the other when the spool run out and the join isn't 100% perfect.
there are a couple of holes in the front of the (knitted) wauistband where I didn't bother changing a blunt needle to do the top stitching

I made an silly error on the X stitch on one epaulette on one side of the first Goldsmith sample, didn't notice it until the photos were done at the factory. I could have
(1) asked Dom to send another photo of the correctly stitched epaulette on the other shoulder,
(2) not post an epaulette picture at all,
(3) post the one I've got and hope nobody noticed........... or
(4) post the pic I had clearly showing the error and point it out in my post. (Button Pocket A-2 Thread)

Bluster and denial will only lead us down the road recently travelled.......as Jeremy's Press Agent!!!

 

[Officer Dibley]

All very interesting.

This must all be taken in the context of the medium we communicate in: we would all be different if we were sat face to face in a pub.

Also that we all represent probably 1% of the 2% of the general population who own an A-2.

In the rarified geekish world that all specialists/academics inhabit, we are all way off the bell curve in knowledge AND criticality on flight jackets and no-one should expect any maker to respond to the criticism of some of the more high minded, opinionated members on here who like to point out flaws to show how much more clever they are than us. Yet many like Ken do respond - because they are enthusiasts. Ken is the only one who comes here regularly and he has more right to an opinion than ANY of us and the right to defend himself.
There are some in their snobbish, self appointed hierarchy who can't deal with any criticism. They need to grow a pair because some are the most critical of others.
For most of us it is a mirror of the lives and work we do that makes us a little rough around the edges, ready to defend ourselves and hard of skin. Other princesses have lived cosseted lives and need to toughen up......this is just jackets and not a comment on anyone's value as a human being.
Give this forum all the context and proportionality it deserves.

 

[Dr H]

[QUOTE="Officer Dibley, post: 208726, member: 5199] he has more right to an opinion than ANY of us[/QUOTE]

In your world view perhaps. Not in mine...

 

[Officer Dibley]

Correction then Ian. He has just as much right to his opinion as the rest of us. However, he had walked the walk for longer than most and actually makes jackets and runs a profitable business doing so and therefore FOR ME, his views carry more weight than a bunch of enthusiastic collectors .
Better now ?

 

[Dr H]

Better for me, certainly, if this place is not simply to become a pale imitation of the Fedora Lounge.