Early A-2 Werber and SAT colors

[Weasel_Loader]

I've been thinking about another A-2 recently and would like to copy one of the jackets in the photo below since my last squadron I was in was the 31st (although now a Test & Eval Sq and not Bomb Sq). Of course since no one has produced a repro SAT, I'd have to go with either a '33 Werber or A-1, but my question is what color these jackets are? They look most likely dark seal, but I was under the impression that most early A-1s and A-2s were russet. Any ideas on the below photos?

 

[Roughwear]

The pictures of surviving Werbers in Full Gear and on the ELC site and the pictures of the SAT in Full Gear indicate that they were russet.

 

[hairpin151]

Danny,
In your picture of the three aviators standing together it looks like there is something sewn above the left pocket of their jackets.A strip of some sort,maybe a squadron thing as they all have it.Anyone else see it or is my bad eyes again?

 

[Roughwear]

They have their name strips sewn above their left pockets.

 

[Weasel_Loader]

Andrew,

Thanks for the heads up. Guess I need to break down and buy some of these books.

Yes, as stated by Andrew, the patches above the pockets are name tapes. You can view a detailed image in one of my Early Muroc photo threads in the photo topics section. All the jackets in my photos seem to have them but I was only able to clearly see a "painted on" name of a 2nd Lt in one of the photos. I think the names are there on the other jackets but they have faded to the point of not being seen in the photos.

 

[Chris217]

I wonder if some of those early name tags were impressed with their names using large block letters?

 

[asiamiles]

Interesting; looking at that top blow-up (SAT, A-1, Werber) it seems the Werber has a riveted zipper but the SAT does not. And I don't see a throat latch on the Werber.

 

[deeb7]

... And I don't see a throat latch on the Werber.

The early Werber's have the throat latch, but it's a more simple version, not riveted, but sewn to the collar stand.

The Few copy this feature in their repro, so if we can borrow Bevan's picture .....

 

[Weasel_Loader]

Interesting; looking at that top blow-up (SAT, A-1, Werber) it seems the Werber has a riveted zipper but the SAT does not. And I don't see a throat latch on the Werber.

Are you sure? I can faintly see a glint of the metal throat hook at the top of his collar.

 

[better duck]

guys, forgive my ignorance, but what's a 'SAT'? Sorry to ask after receiving tuition on VJL for nearly three years now. Must have been dozing off ...

As to the colour: I would think that the left and right jackets actually are russet: they are a light shade of grey, which would translate to a lighter colour than seal in a colour pic. Take a look how this colour photo of me in my GW Dubow in goat translates into grey-scales:

 

[deeb7]

guys, forgive my ignorance, but what's a 'SAT'?

Peter, it's Security ... the first (1932) maker of the A-2, distinguished by it's buttoned pocket flaps.

The company is Security Sportswear of Chicago. The forum uses the acronym SAT derived from the civilian Security Aviation Togs label.

 

[better duck]

. The forum uses the acronym SAT derived from the civilian Security Aviation Togs label.

Check. I remember now. Thanks dave

 

[jack aranda]

Hi, better duck:
Thank you for asking about 'SAT'. I didn't know either, but was too lazy to ask. Are there any extant A-2' still out there? I don't think I've seen one here save in vintage pics in the few months I've been around.

 

[better duck]

Here are two other examples of colourphotos reduced to "shades of grey". In this case my new beautifully deep russet, the vibrantly coloured GW Dubow. See how black it seems in the B&W photos! The difference in lighting is that in the first one the sun shines directly on the jacket, in the second one there are larger parts that are in the shadow - and thus seem even blacker.

 

[jnlight75]

Just to toss it in to the discussion: the BW shade of the russet jacket will be further affected by filters used on the camera lens. Use of a colored filter with BW is/was not uncommon to enhance the look of the sky or improve contrast. Use of the filter can significantly change the shade of colors in the final BW photograph making analysis of the original color very difficult if you do not know the color of the filter used.

 

[kkochheiser]

Just to toss it in to the discussion: the BW shade of the russet jacket will be further affected by filters used on the camera lens. Use of a colored filter with BW is/was not uncommon to enhance the look of the sky or improve contrast. Use of the filter can significantly change the shade of colors in the final BW photograph making analysis of the original color very difficult if you do not know the color of the filter used.

True, and I'll take it one step further; the B&W film stocks of that era were very sensitive to some colors, red in particular which would make things with a lot of red in them look quite dark compared with bluer or greener shaded things. I'm guessing that russet would tend to look darker on those films than just taking a modern digital shot and rendering it in grayscale.

 

[Weasel_Loader]

Thanks for all the advice fellas. Never really gave it some thought as to how a true russet HH would look in B&W. I guess filters can make them look even darker too. Thanks again.