about P-38

[dujardin]

i discover those photos on a PPS about this great plane
i realise some sreen capture

byeeeeeeee marcel

 

[442RCT]

One of my favorite P-38 stories was about a B-17 pilot in the book, "Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38".

The Italians had captured an intact P-38 and one of their pilots was using it to shoot down crippled stragglers, separated from their bomb group. The Italian spoke good English and would offer to escort the crippled bomber back to friendly lines. When the crew let down their guard, their "Little friend", shot them down. The US sent a specially armed B-17 to find and shoot down this captured P-38. They weren't having much luck as the Italian was a careful foe. The leader of the B-17 crew received intelligence on the identity of the Italian pilot. Seems the Italian pilot's village was now on the allied side of the line. He asked to have a photo taken of the guy's wife or sweetheart, then had it reproduced as nose art on his heavily armed B-17. On one mission as they straggled alone, a P-38 flew alongside and offered to escort them back home. Both pilots got into a conversation about the nose art. The B-17 pilot basically told the P-38 pilot that, yes he knew the woman very, very personally and she was a hot piece of ...you get the picture. The Italian pilot got so enraged, he broke off and started a gun run on the now alerted B-17. The B-17 crew shot down the rogue P-38.

 

[dujardin]

wowwwwwwww, ''funny'' story
first time i heard of such war story
thankssssssss
marcel

 

[capt71]

Deleted

 

[Peter Graham]

One of my favorite P-38 stories was about a B-17 pilot in the book, "Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38".

The Italians had captured an intact P-38 and one of their pilots was using it to shoot down crippled stragglers, separated from their bomb group. The Italian spoke good English and would offer to escort the crippled bomber back to friendly lines. When the crew let down their guard, their "Little friend", shot them down. The US sent a specially armed B-17 to find and shoot down this captured P-38. They weren't having much luck as the Italian was a careful foe. The leader of the B-17 crew received intelligence on the identity of the Italian pilot. Seems the Italian pilot's village was now on the allied side of the line. He asked to have a photo taken of the guy's wife or sweetheart, then had it reproduced as nose art on his heavily armed B-17. On one mission as they straggled alone, a P-38 flew alongside and offered to escort them back home. Both pilots got into a conversation about the nose art. The B-17 pilot basically told the P-38 pilot that, yes he knew the woman very, very personally and she was a hot piece of ...you get the picture. The Italian pilot got so enraged, he broke off and started a gun run on the now alerted B-17. The B-17 crew shot down the rogue P-38.

I find that really hard to believe. The P-38 is my favourite aircraft. For P-38 fans I recommend the book "The lost squadron".

 

[Andrew]

Below are 2 photographs from my Dad's WW2 photo collection. I'm pretty sure they were taken from a B-24. On the back of one is handwritten "Charter Towers--April". I'm also pretty sure they were taken in 1943. Charter Towers is in N.E. Australia and the airbase there was used in WW2 by the 475th Fighter Group (comprised of the 431st, 432nd, and 433rd Fighter Squadrons), which flew P-38s. This particular P-38 evidently is from that base. Studying the original photo and "messing" with the scanned photo the tail number looks like 2717. I researched the 475th FG, but that particular number is not listed (however, they have a whole bunch of P-38s listed there with no tail numbers). Can't make out any nose markings at all.

Bill

Love the P-38. what a blast to have taken those shots.
Hey Bill, you know what I thought of when I saw those shots? The landscape looks just like the coast around this part of the world, specifially the coast of the bay Islands off Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast (Moreton, Stradbroke and Fraser). They are a bit unique as being the largest sand islands in the world and you really only see that kind of coast in this region.

"Charlies Trousers" is inland about 150k's from Townsville and the coast looks a bit different. I'm not saying it's not what you think but I wonder did your Dad ever visit Brisbane as P-38's were delivered here and assembled, sent for repair and maintenance and I imagine tested all around the region- that one certaily looks beaten up.
Just a thought...

http://www.sandgate.net/~pdunn/p38oz.htm
http://www.ourbrisbane.com/photos/26062 ... -over-city
http://www.ozatwar.com/475fg.htm

 

[capt71]

Deleted

 

[tom james]

There is a novel called "Renegade Lightning








There's a novel written about that story called "Renegade Lightning", supposably based on a true account.

 

[442RCT]

I find that really hard to believe. The P-38 is my favourite aircraft. For P-38 fans I recommend the book "The lost squadron".

http://www.amazon.com/Fork-Tailed-Devil ... 0743413180

I read the story in this book. The author of the other novel didn't need to glamorize and hype up to the true story...it was already gripping and interesting in it's own right.

If I recall, the end of the true story wasn't a happy ending. The Italian pilot was shot down, crash landed into the sea. The B-17 crew wanted their pilot to make a strafing run and finish him off. After all, he had shot down crippled bombers by disguising himself as a friend. The B-17 pilot said no, and called in air-sea rescue to pick up the downed enemy combatant. The Italian spent the rest of war as a POW and returned to his life after the war. The B-17 pilot continued to serve his country and was KIA in a later mission.

 

[handworn]

Looks like it might be 2317, to me.

Studying the original photo and "messing" with the scanned photo the tail number looks like 2717.

 

[Lignemaginot]

You probably already know about this one, but here's another interesting P-38 story:

http://www.profilingtheunexplained.com/ ... topic=2337
http://tighar.org/Projects/P38/welshdiscovery.htm

 

[Swing]

One of my favorite P-38 stories was about a B-17 pilot in the book, "Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38".

The Italians had captured an intact P-38 and one of their pilots was using it to shoot down crippled stragglers, separated from their bomb group. The Italian spoke good English and would offer to escort the crippled bomber back to friendly lines. When the crew let down their guard, their "Little friend", shot them down. The US sent a specially armed B-17 to find and shoot down this captured P-38. They weren't having much luck as the Italian was a careful foe. The leader of the B-17 crew received intelligence on the identity of the Italian pilot. Seems the Italian pilot's village was now on the allied side of the line. He asked to have a photo taken of the guy's wife or sweetheart, then had it reproduced as nose art on his heavily armed B-17. On one mission as they straggled alone, a P-38 flew alongside and offered to escort them back home. Both pilots got into a conversation about the nose art. The B-17 pilot basically told the P-38 pilot that, yes he knew the woman very, very personally and she was a hot piece of ...you get the picture. The Italian pilot got so enraged, he broke off and started a gun run on the now alerted B-17. The B-17 crew shot down the rogue P-38.

Sounds like a total bullshit story to me.

BTW, Italy was invaded on September 3, 1943 and officially surrendered on September 8, 1943. So in those five days they overran the Italian's home town, got his girlfriends picture, painted it on the plane, found the Italian, spoke with him on the radio, got him pissed, shot him down, and then the crew wanted to swoop down in their B-17 and strafe the guy. Yep, total bullshit.

Any capture airplanes would have been shot down or (more likely) strafed when found by allied fighters.

~Swing

 

[Swing]

http://tighar.org/Projects/P38/welshdiscovery.htm

I notice this group doesn't have the pictures of the WWII Talon zipper that they consider to be Amelia Earhart evidence up on their page anymore (I hanged onto them though). They have a write up by some expert who measured some old zips though, and feels certain the WWII style Talon (that we're all familiar with) that they found was made before 1938. Guess if you wish hard enough it makes it so.

~Swing

 

[442RCT]

I guess this goes into the urban flying legends of WW2. I did some googling after reading your timeline.

http://www.comandosupremo.com/Facts.html

Guido Rossi was an Italian fighter ace who shot down many Allied Bombers by using a captured American P-38 to disguise himself as an ally.

http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/inde ... ntry181679
They had 3 versions of this story, all more or less the same, with a few tweaks.

One of the more interesting stories in the MTO was of the phantom P-38, which was causing trouble for many crippled bombers. Beginning on June 4, 1943, a crippled bomber was coming back from a mission against the island of Pantelleria. The crew was considering bailing out of their bomber when they spotted a P-38 coming closer. They immediately relaxed knowing it was coming to their aid. The crew continued to dump extra weight from the aircraft, including the guns and ammunition. Before the crew realized what happened, the P-38 erupted in gunfire and destroyed the B-17. The only survivor was the pilot, Lt. Harold Fisher. Fisher was rescued and was the target of fury from the fighter pilots by suggesting it was a friendly P-38 that shot them down.

Several weeks before Lt. Fisher's ordeal, a P-38 pilot was low on fuel and was lost. He actually made an emergency landing just outside of Sardinia. The pilot was captured before he was able to destroy his aircraft. Italian pilot, Lt. Guido Rossi came up with the idea of using this P-38 against the American bombers. Rossi's strategy was to wait until the bombers made their attacks. Rossi would then take off and scout around for stragglers. He actually used this technique to shoot down several bombers. Until Lt. Fisher, no other crews survived to tell of the P-38 shooting them down. The American commanders were under the assumption that these missing bombers just did not make it back just as many before them. Nobody thought a friendly aircraft was the cause.

After Fisher told his story, bombers crews were alerted to look for a lone P-38, which was posing as a friendly. Fisher came up with the idea of using a decoy B-17 to attract Rossi. Fisher's idea was approved and he took off in the experimental YB-40 gunship. This was simply a modified B-17, which had more armor and guns. He flew several missions lagging behind the rest of the formations, but never encountered Rossi. Intelligence was being gathered and the Allies finally learned the identity of the pilot. They also learned that his wife was living in Allied occupied Constantine. An artist actually used a picture of his wife to paint a nose art picture on Fisher's bomber, and included her name, Gina. On August 31, a B-17 raid struck Pisa. Fisher was flying among the bombers, and was actually damaged by enemy fighters. He recovered at a low altitude and had to feather two engines. Before lone, a lone P-38 was approaching and the crew was on high alert. Rossi, using very good English, contacted Fisher, just as he did on previous occasions. Rossi immediately noticed the nose art on the aircraft and spoke with Fisher. Fisher was still uncertain the pilot was Rossi and was chatting with Rossi normally. Fisher decided to bait this pilot to see if it was Rossi or not, and began talking about Gine and her location in Constantine. When Fisher was describing intimate details of their "relationship", Rossi lost his cool. He peeled off and began his attack. Fisher ordered all guns to open up on this P-38, and Rossi had to peel off trailing smoke. Rossi intended to ram the bomber, but began breaking up and could not maintain flight. He was able to ditch in the water and survived. Rossi was later picked up and taken prisoner. Fisher was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross medal for his efforts. Fisher would survive the war, but was killed in a transport accident during the Berlin Airlift. Incidentally, Rossi was one of the mourners at his funeral.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/ ... 1581005626

Guido Rossi again! OMG will this one never die! This is another of Martin Caiden's fabrications.

There was a "Italian P-38 vs B-17 battle" that actually occurred during WW2, but as for the story recounted in Fork-Tailed Devil, that one's absolute 100% fiction. It never happened, at least as Caidin embellishes it. There was no Italian ace named Guido Rossi among the 123 Italian aces of WW2, the dates don't match up, I'm not aware of any YB-40 being sent to the MTO, the actual Italian P-38 was grounded, not shot down, etc... What actually happened to inspire Caidin's story is just as remarkable without the embellishments.

On June 12, 1943, a USAAF P-38G, while on a flight from Gibraltar to Malta, suffered compass problems and landed by mistake at Capoterra, Sardinia. The Lightning was painted in Italian markings, and transferred to the Italian Test Center at Guidonia. On August 11, 1943, chief test pilot Col. Angelo Tondi used the P-38 to intercept USAAF bombers on their way to attack targets in central Italy. Tondi shot down a B-17F, "Bonnie Sue", of the 419th BS, 301st BG. This was the only successful interception achieved by the P-38G, which was soon grounded due to the poor quality of Italian gasoline, which corroded the fuel tanks. I believe that this is the only documented example of a captured US fighter being used to shoot down a US aircraft during WW2.

http://www.1stfighter.org/photos/P38%20 ... lians.html

've seen the pictures of the " Italian P-38 ". I would add some details to the story.

The 12 of June, 1943 a lonely P-38 landed at Capoterra airfield on southern Sardinia. The Italians on the airfield cannot believe what was happening. A soldier, quickly, move a car just on the front of the aircraft to prevent a restart. The P-38's pilot was opening the canopy when he realize that he had landed on the wrong place. He tried to take off but it was too late to do it and he was captured. The pilot - his identity is unknown - was flyng from Malta to Gibraltar ( other sources says he was flyng from Tunis to Pantelleria ) to deliver a bag containing documents and mail. He landed at Capoterra almost out of fuel after a long trip above the Mediterranean Sea . Later was found a compass failure resulting in 30 degrees error on the route . The P-38 was probably an E model upgraded to G models. Voices says that last four digits of the serial number were 2278. The US insignia was covered with Italian Dark Green paint who was a bit darker respect the US Olive Drab. Then were applied white bands on the booms, Sabaudian crosses on the tails and spinners was painted in white. The Lightning was tested at Guidonia Experimental Center near Rome and later was used against US bombers. The Col. Angelo Tondi - a skilled Italian pilot - flyng with the P-38 shoot down a US B-24 Liberator off Anzio coast at 11am of August 11, 1943, six of B-24's crew bailed out from the aircraft . The Italian Lightning had a no long flyng career because the German synthetic fuel used by Italians corroded P-38's fuel tanks and the aircraft was forced to stay on the ground, but US reports says that B-17s bombers were attacked by two P-38s on early September 1943. During another mission a damaged US P-38 was flyng close to US bombers needing protection. The bomber's gunners, thinking he was the " enemy " P-38, shoot down the aircraft.

The Italian P-38 disappeared . Its ultimate fate is unknown.

I hope you will find the last part of the story.

Best regards

Sandrino Sogus

So the truth seems to be, the Italians captured a P-38, it did shoot down a US B-24. The rest of the story with nose art etc. and insults, were added fictional embellishments by Martin Caidin for his book "Fork Tailed Devil". 1/2 of the internet and those of us who've read his book believed it was a true story, (hey it had names, dates, and places), the others who've done their homework called it BS. Oh well, it was a good story. :roll:

Didja' know there was 10 pages of Amelia Earhart stuff on eBay ?

 

[Andrew]

Love the P-38. what a blast to have taken those shots.
Hey Bill, you know what I thought of when I saw those shots? The landscape looks just like the coast around this part of the world, specifially the coast of the bay Islands off Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast (Moreton, Stradbroke and Fraser). They are a bit unique as being the largest sand islands in the world and you really only see that kind of coast in this region.

"Charlies Trousers" is inland about 150k's from Townsville and the coast looks a bit different. I'm not saying it's not what you think but I wonder did your Dad ever visit Brisbane as P-38's were delivered here and assembled, sent for repair and maintenance and I imagine tested all around the region- that one certaily looks beaten up.
Just a thought...

Hi Andrew. All I know is what he had handwritten on the back of one of the photos ("Charter Towers--April"). Could very well be off Brisbane as his Bomb Group did fly there. I'm thinking that if the photos were taken in April '43 that would have been around the time the Group was finishing up the process of deploying their B-24s to Fenton. From the US they did fly into Brisbane, then up to Charter Towers (or "Charlies Trousers" :lol: ) and on to Darwin/Fenton. Maybe the note on the photo actually meant "while on the way to or from Charter Towers in April"? Notice that the star on the wing is "missing" in the 2nd photo--the 1st photo must have been printed in reverse. Every time I look at the photo collection I want to go back to Oz for another visit!
Bill

Bill, just came across these shots from the same series- must have been taken from your Dad's ship! Seems they were taken over Moreton Island (just across the bay from Brisbane (Eagle Farm) where the 81st ADG was based. Someone's had a go at colourizing this shot, but I gather there's an original copy in the State Library of Queensland. Wonder how that would have happened?

http://home.st.net.au/~pdunn/usaaf/81adg01.jpg
http://home.st.net.au/~pdunn/ozatwar/81adg.htm

For some reason you can't cut and paste the webpage, but this is what it says;

"Final test flight of a P-38 Lightning over Moreton Bay, southern Queensland. (Information taken from: 81st Air Depot Group, 5th Air Force, USAAF in Australia during World War II, .....The P-38 Lightning (also known as the forktailed devil) was part of the 81st Air Depot Group based at Eagle Farm Airport during World War II. This particular aircraft was one of the original four Lockheed Lightning F4 Reconnaissance Aircraft delivered to the United States Airforce based in Australia in April 1942. It is on a test flight after being assembled"

http://bishop.slq.qld.gov.au/view/actio ... ePid2=true

 

[capt71]

Bill, just came across these shots from the same series- must have been taken from your Dad's ship! Seems they were taken over Moreton Island (just across the bay from Brisbane (Eagle Farm) where the 81st ADG was based. Someone's had a go at colourizing this shot, but I gather there's an original copy in the State Library of Queensland. Wonder how that would have happened?

Andrew,
Fantastic! Yep, that's the same one--now it's pretty clear that the tail number was 2217. Could be that either: 1) The photos I have possibly were taken by the 81st and copies given to Dad's squadron, or 2) He or his Group gave copies to the 81st (I'm sure they were all in contact at one time or another). I'm sure there were more photos of this sequence--wonder if the library would have more? Thanks for the great photo and links (although the last one gave an error message & wouldn't connect).
Bill
P.S. After looking at the info about the 81st ADG and my photos again, I'm now pretty certain that they were NOT taken from a B-24--the one photo showing a portion of the wing of the aircraft the picture was taken from is looking across the top of the wing, with a "ridge" running across it. The B-24 wing didn't have any transverse "ridges", but the most obvious: there is no way a photo could have been taken in flight from a B-24 that looked across the top of the wing: the B-24 wing was high on the fuselage, with the top very close to the top of the fuselage. It's all wrong for being shot from a B-24 Liberator. Therefore, I think they were taken from another type aircraft, probably based at Brisbane, and came into my Dad's possession somehow. I know he flew at least one "administrative" flight to Brisbane from Fenton, so he may have been given the photos while there.