307th Fighter Sq. Perry A-2: Bad Ebay seller, Bad A-2

[saunders]

http://www.ebay.com:80/itm/ws/eBayISAPI ... TQ:US:1123

[color=#BF0000]This A-2 was listed previously (and may have sold) on this site: [/color]

http://veteransfootlocker.com/cgi-bin/D ... m.asp?1513

Because I smelled something (I think it didn't sell on the other web site and was pulled by this same seller) and the knit (cuffs, at least) looked replaced on the "Veteran's Footlocker" listing, as well as noticing the empty stitch holes surrounding the insignia and name tag, plus the wear to the insignia is at odds with the wear on the A-2, so I emailed the seller on Ebay. Here's the transcript, with my questions in red and the seller's reply in blue:


Before making an offer, I need you to please amplify on a few elements that impact value:

1) I assume this is the same A-2 that sold on another web site - Veteran's Footlocker - right?
2) The cuffs definitely appear to be replaced, and possibly the waistband; can you send good-quality, in-focus pics of these areas?
3) Is the name tag and 307th insignia original to the A-2?
4) Do you have any history on this veteran? He's of rank indicating possible squadron CO or XO, so it would seem info. should be available if this really is his A-2.
5) Other than lining in the collar area, do you see stains, holes, wear, tears, split seams or repairs anywhere else?
6) Are there any holes, tears, split seams, repairs or other damage to the leather or any snaps that don't work or are missing parts?
7) Is there any damage or repair work to the zipper or its teeth and cotton tape? Does it work perfectly?
8) What is the make and brand name inside the officer's cap and please detail condition?

Thank you.

Wow. Way to many questions to answer. No history. Hat was added by me to complete it for a display. Nice original untouched jacket.

So he doesn't like to answer key questions that impact value when he'd like a buyer to pay him $4, 500 with no return option. And he maintains the A-2 is original and untouched when clearly the name tag and insignia have been touched in some way. How'd this guy get a perfect feedback rating? Customer ignorance and ineptitude? I love the unit's history and insignia, but I know I'll avoid this A-2 at all costs.

Saunders

 

[JDAM]

Not sure I get your point. I guess it didn't sell on that private site so the seller put it on Ebay. Seems to be the same identical jacket. I can't see any signs of stitching issues or any indication that the jacket wear doesn't match the insignia. But the flyer missing from the 307th history/roster is a flag for sure.

Anyway, no doubt the seller is this chap: http://www.brentsantiques.com/

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Is the vet missing from the 307th roster for real? or the seller just doesn't have a detailed history? Where are the empty stitch holes? Nothing seems suspicious to me. Plenty of positive feedback, I started at page 66 and came forward, nothing but positive FB and got sick of looking. It's usually the guys under 25 you gotta watch out for, buyer or seller. And if a bad A2, any buyer has the advantage of almost unlimited protection anyway. He may just feel that all the questions may be too much trouble considering most are answered within the description.

 

[saunders]

Not sure I get your point. I guess it didn't sell on that private site so the seller put it on Ebay. Seems to be the same identical jacket. I can't see any signs of stitching issues or any indication that the jacket wear doesn't match the insignia. But the flyer missing from the 307th history/roster is a flag for sure.

Anyway, no doubt the seller is this chap: http://www.brentsantiques.com/

You need to look more closely at the close-up lining pic on Vistine's web site where the A-2 was originally listed: Both the patch (lower right bottom corner) and name tag display empty stitch holes. Also, look at the close-up of the name tag on the front of the A-2 and you'll see marks of movement. The pics are of poor quality but if you know what you are looking for, you can see what I describe.

Yes, the 307th roster lacks this vet's name and he was a major - bad, bad sign.

And this seller has a militaria web site but needs Vistine's site and Ebay to sell an A-2 of this supposed rarity and desirability? Just wayyyyy too many bad vibes that I'm sure would prove my hunch correct upon scrutiny of better pics or seeing in person.

 

[saunders]

Is the vet missing from the 307th roster for real? or the seller just doesn't have a detailed history? Where are the empty stitch holes? Nothing seems suspicious to me. Plenty of positive feedback, I started at page 66 and came forward, nothing but positive FB and got sick of looking. It's usually the guys under 25 you gotta watch out for, buyer or seller. And if a bad A2, any buyer has the advantage of almost unlimited protection anyway. He may just feel that all the questions may be too much trouble considering most are answered within the description.

See my follow-up in this thread above; you need to look more closely to see the empty stitch holes. The cuffs are repro replacements I can easily see (the fuzziness and plumpness of the wool and the way the leather grasps the cuffs and the fact they haven't stretched out gives this away), even in the poor pics, while the waist band is tough to call in the poor pics.

Positive feedback is meaningless if those who buy don't know what they are buying, which is largely the case on Ebay; I know plenty of notorious crooks with perfect Ebay feedback.

The patch is wayyyy too new for the wear on the jacket: Notice it has no discernible soiling, fading or wear - nothing. The stacked-leather issue-type rank insignia has been obliterated from friction wear, which is typical, and usually from the seat and/or parachute harness, but no friction wear resulted to the wool patch from the same harness straps???

I can't say I'm familiar w/ Ebay protection, but I do know I'd be covered from Am Ex via Pay Pal.

He is, at the least, guilty of poor customer service, but I'll maintain my position that this is a bad A-2 and he knows it. That's why he didn't list it on his web site, and that's why it hasn't sold elsewhere as of now. Ebay is the the great laundromat today for bad items, much like Manion's Auction House was before Ebay.

 

[Anonymous]

I like the patch.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

I hear ya, but just as quick as a guy can say the patch wear doesn't match the rank, another one can say the vet put the patch on later. And maybe there's a reason for a missing name on the roster, who knows? And for the life of me, I see no empty stitch holes on this jacket. Bottom line is that if it scares you, you don't have to buy it.

Guess I have a personal issue with auctions being scrutinized by an individual with their own set of views on what's legit and what is not. I've had the same thing happen to me, a guy accuse me of faking infantry straps on an Airborne D bale helmet, as if I was clever enough to do the factory stitch, but stupid enough to put infantry straps. The auction went very low compared to the same type helmet without straps at all. This guy was slandering my name all over forums etc. And I swear to Christ that I bought it out of a house for 80 bucks the way it was.

Feel like a broken record sometimes as I've brought this up many times before. But I disagree with a lot of the types of posts where someone just labels another without definitive proof. I may even agree with you that this A-2 is questionable, but don't go calling this guy bad. I've been picking up everything from all branches of service, weapons to sewing kits for about 15 years, right out of estates. Believe me, a lot can happen before items find their way into the hands of collectors.

 

[saunders]

I hear ya, but just as quick as a guy can say the patch wear doesn't match the rank, another one can say the vet put the patch on later. And maybe there's a reason for a missing name on the roster, who knows? And for the life of me, I see no empty stitch holes on this jacket. Bottom line is that if it scares you, you don't have to buy it.

Guess I have a personal issue with auctions being scrutinized by an individual with their own set of views on what's legit and what is not. I've had the same thing happen to me, a guy accuse me of faking infantry straps on an Airborne D bale helmet, as if I was clever enough to do the factory stitch, but stupid enough to put infantry straps. The auction went very low compared to the same type helmet without straps at all. This guy was slandering my name all over forums etc. And I swear to Christ that I bought it out of a house for 80 bucks the way it was.

Feel like a broken record sometimes as I've brought this up many times before. But I disagree with a lot of the types of posts where someone just labels another without definitive proof. I may even agree with you that this A-2 is questionable, but don't go calling this guy bad. I've been picking up everything from all branches of service, weapons to sewing kits for about 15 years, right out of estates. Believe me, a lot can happen before items find their way into the hands of collectors.

If you are one of the infinitely few always-honest dealers in this hobby, then I both applaud your convictions and integrity as much as I feel badly for you to be subjected to that which is so justly earned by most of your dealer brethern. It's agreed that some good items and sellers get unjustly condemned, and some sellers make honest mistakes, but that's just not the case here. People will attempt to explain away everything and anything, including my all-time fave: "How do you know? You weren't there when it was made."

I've been looking at this stuff for nearly my entire life; though not infallible, my acumen for such things is in the top 1/100th of 1%. I made my bones with 3rd Reich items, where this sort of "played-with" item would instantly die a quick death. I know sh_t from Shinola and I know what I'm looking, and I'd admit it if this were too close to call - but that's not the case. I have a nose for the truth and I know how people are, especially collectors and dealers in militaria. My contention and accusation both remain without remorse or repentance. My only agenda here is to spare the unenlightened from getting duped, which is exactly what I do when at shows. If the unenlightened don't wish to be saved, then they can be part of the food chain.

Saunders

 

[dmar836]

Always err on the side of caution with that type of answer and a price that high - it's a lose - lose combination IMO. The price indicates he know something and the answer indicates he is arrogant enough to think provenance, or even a straight answer about condition is too petty for him to deal with. Dismissing your questions means he would be absolutely unforgiving with a return - even if due to his misrepresentation. Either that or he pays no attention to details. All should show in a lower starting bid.
Times are such that laziness to research something will potentially break the historical chain forever. Therefore, without provenance, a jacket had better be reasonably priced. I have several jackets or items that are "named" but that means little - -it's like a needle in a haystack. Having the unit and name and no listing is even more problematic as it's going to take random cross referencing, if not downright speculation, to find the guy. Unit rosters can be incomplete or not be updated frequently enough to include a replacement flyer. I agree with that rank, it should be easier to find. It gets harder and harder to verify history the more times it is sold so this break has to be considered in that kind of price range IMO.
This price reflects a solid, well-documented Perry with a good history and papers included - minimum.
Good call IMO,
Dave

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Like I said, I hear ya. I've been looking at this stuff all my life as well. And with the exception of a handful of weekends in the past 15 years, been out there pulling stuff out into the light of day for the first time in decades. I can't nail a guy from speculation and pictures on the internet like you, but I've seen several, much more questionable pieces first hand out of the vets house.

Last week at a yard sale, A guy showed me his dad's medic helmet without medic insignia, and a bullet hole through it. He told me the whole story. If I bought that helmet and told the same story, more than one guy would say I'm full of you know what.

And again, I do wonder a little about this piece and I do understand your concerns, but still don't see those damn stitch holes. :lol:

 

[Roughwear]

The wristlets are most certainly replacements. There would no be this tight except on a very lightly worn original and there are a few tell tale stitch holes visible. When you look at the lining it does appear the patch may have been a later addition, was re-sewn or some sewing errors were made when it was originally installed. I do know sometimes patches were removed by vets' families and then re-applied by the next owner and the same goes for a name tag. The rank insignia does not appear to have been messed with. The price is way too high even if the jacket has not been tampered with in anyway.

 

[ciddu]

I'm not competent enough to give a definite opinion about the originality or the history of it, but I think that with such a BIN price the seller is supposed at least to answer to every single question in depth, and quickly supply further info and more pics on request...
"Hey man, come on, too many questions..." Is not the kind of answer I would accept for a price in the thousands range.

 

[Roughwear]

I'm not competent enough to give a definite opinion about the originality or the history of it, but I think that with such a BIN price the seller is supposed at least to answer to every single question in depth, and quickly supply further info and more pics on request...
"Hey man, come on, too many questions..." Is not the kind of answer I would accept for a price in the thousands range.

This goes without saying. By taking this attitude his doing himself no favours!

 

[saunders]

The wristlets are most certainly replacements. There would no be this tight except on a very lightly worn original and there are a few tell tale stitch holes visible. When you look at the lining it does appear the patch may have been a later addition, was re-sewn or some sewing errors were made when it was originally installed. I do know sometimes patches were removed by vets' families and then re-applied by the next owner and the same goes for a name tag. The rank insignia does not appear to have been messed with. The price is way too high even if the jacket has not been tampered with in anyway.

You know what you are looking at, Andrew, and are of sound reason with keen eyes. I had a feeling you would see what I see! Even most minty A-2s have stretched cuffs and waistbands, the latter of which usually also erode in length at the back, as you well know. Yes, the empty stitch holes could be explained in a few ways, but once you have to do that sort of explaining to buyers, the piece has already spiraled into its death plunge. And to say the A-2 is "untouched" is either a lie or it speaks of the seller's full ignorance of what he is selling. But when you add up all the info. available on this A-2, including the seller's evasiveness, high price and bad attitude, this is then a classic case of walking like a duck and sounding like a duck. If this could be seen in better pics or in person, even some of the less experienced would, IMO, have to walk away.

The BIN price had better be for a well-documented A-2 beyond reproach and with something else in the grouping to buoy the price. This A-2 I'd value at the price of a size 40 Perry restored and the rare, superb unit patch, which should be removed and preserved for what it is.

We of true experience know to trust our eyes and minds and gut feelings. Superb call, Andrew - glad to have you on board!

Saunders

 

[saunders]

I'm not competent enough to give a definite opinion about the originality or the history of it, but I think that with such a BIN price the seller is supposed at least to answer to every single question in depth, and quickly supply further info and more pics on request...
"Hey man, come on, too many questions..." Is not the kind of answer I would accept for a price in the thousands range.

Right on!

Saunders

 

[saunders]

I like the patch.

I love this patch and the unit history! If I could find one on a legit jacket, I'd be doing all I could to add it to my collection.

Saunders

 

[ButteMT61]

When someone sells a collectible, and asks a premium price, they best be able to justify the price to prospective buyers with some facts. Now, that said, nobody has to buy it. And from the sound of it, nobody will who knows anything.
The response to the questions was terrible, and I'd never buy from someone like that. Period.

 

[saunders]

/

Guess I have a personal issue with auctions being scrutinized by an individual with their own set of views on what's legit and what is not.

I've had the same thing happen to me, a guy accuse me of faking infantry straps on an Airborne D bale helmet, as if I was clever enough to do the factory stitch, but stupid enough to put infantry straps. The auction went very low compared to the same type helmet without straps at all. This guy was slandering my name all over forums etc. And I swear to Christ that I bought it out of a house for 80 bucks the way it was

I've been involved in this hobby long enough to say with a very high degree of certitude that "my own set of views" are pretty much universal views among those who are GENUINELY in the know, though that subset is, indeed, a true minority group.

That's a damn shame about your M-2 helmet, and the libel (or slander, if applicable) you mention should be prosecuted in civil court if it has done you harm. Bar-tack sewing machines capable of sewing 42 lines to the inch are very rare today, and even more rare is the webbing for straps (I've seen this in very limited amounts on only two occasions in 30 years and both times were before anyone was faking GI helmets). While the M-2 shouldn't have what you describe, it is believable to those of true knowledge and experience because it conforms to what we know about GI helmet production and what could have taken place in a wartime factory. And, as you suggest, no one would be so foolish as to add such straps to a legit M-2 helmet! But that which can happen at a factory and be readily digested as true is not the same as what can be readily digested as true in the hands of the individual GI, as is the case with this A-2: The cuffs are no way factory and the empty stitch holes create many questions vis-a-vis the seller. If your helmet looked like a true factory job that was done in 1942, I'd have been all over it.

Saunders

 

[saunders]

Always err on the side of caution with that type of answer and a price that high - it's a lose - lose combination IMO. The price indicates he know something and the answer indicates he is arrogant enough to think provenance, or even a straight answer about condition is too petty for him to deal with. Dismissing your questions means he would be absolutely unforgiving with a return - even if due to his misrepresentation. Either that or he pays no attention to details. All should show in a lower starting bid.
Times are such that laziness to research something will potentially break the historical chain forever. Therefore, without provenance, a jacket had better be reasonably priced. I have several jackets or items that are "named" but that means little - -it's like a needle in a haystack. Having the unit and name and no listing is even more problematic as it's going to take random cross referencing, if not downright speculation, to find the guy. Unit rosters can be incomplete or not be updated frequently enough to include a replacement flyer. I agree with that rank, it should be easier to find. It gets harder and harder to verify history the more times it is sold so this break has to be considered in that kind of price range IMO.
This price reflects a solid, well-documented Perry with a good history and papers included - minimum.
Good call IMO,
Dave

Thank you, Dave. Like minds, you know ...

Saunders

 

[a2jacketpatches]

/

Guess I have a personal issue with auctions being scrutinized by an individual with their own set of views on what's legit and what is not.

I've had the same thing happen to me, a guy accuse me of faking infantry straps on an Airborne D bale helmet, as if I was clever enough to do the factory stitch, but stupid enough to put infantry straps. The auction went very low compared to the same type helmet without straps at all. This guy was slandering my name all over forums etc. And I swear to Christ that I bought it out of a house for 80 bucks the way it was

I've been involved in this hobby long enough to say with a very high degree of certitude that "my own set of views" are pretty much universal views among those who are GENUINELY in the know, though that subset is, indeed, a true minority group.

That's a damn shame about your M-2 helmet, and the libel (or slander, if applicable) you mention should be prosecuted in civil court if it has done you harm. Bar-tack sewing machines capable of sewing 42 lines to the inch are very rare today, and even more rare is the webbing for straps (I've seen this in very limited amounts on only two occasions in 30 years and both times were before anyone was faking GI helmets). While the M-2 shouldn't have what you describe, it is believable to those of true knowledge and experience because it conforms to what we know about GI helmet production and what could have taken place in a wartime factory. And, as you suggest, no one would be so foolish as to add such straps to a legit M-2 helmet! But that which can happen at a factory and be readily digested as true is not the same as what can be readily digested as true in the hands of the individual GI, as is the case with this A-2: The cuffs are no way factory and the empty stitch holes create many questions vis-a-vis the seller. If your helmet looked like a true factory job that was done in 1942, I'd have been all over it.

Saunders

Certainly were applied with factory equipment, and I was pretty open in the description that I was as puzzled as anyone would be. He was at the time an 82nd AB Sgt. and very talkative on a forum about the operations he was involved in. Out ranking him as a civilian, I went straight to the top at the 82nd HQ website and emailed his Commander. That was the end of it.

I didn't catch the replacement cuffs, and that says a lot. But if I could actually see empty stitch holes, I would never give the guy a benefit of the doubt. No matter how hard I look, just don't see them.