WW2 US FLYING EQUIPMENT VS RAF EQUIPMENT

[coalman]

Hello all,

Have been reading over the past few months about how much investment went into flying clothing by the US Goverment from 1939 to 1945, with so many different changes through out that period, so many different jackets ranging from sheepskin B3's, A2 leather jackets to B10/B15 cloth jackets to name a few
Not only the jackets but so many different flying helmets, different gloves, numerous differnet types of flying boots, heated flying suits, unheated flying overalls, caps, hats and goggles.
All the reading I have done plus research on the internet shows to me that the US goverment invested so much more time and effort into making sure the aircrew were well equipped, researching into use of different materials to replace the shortage of horse leather(A2's) an sheepskins (B3's/B6's and the groundcrew D jacket.
Compare that with what the RAF crews only had- 1939 t0 1945 they only had one flying jacket the Irvin, prewar white or blue flying overalls, sidcot suit from 1941, only 5 types of flying boots inc tropical boots.
Just seems to me that the RAF did not bother to do the same for thier own crews, I have even seen reports that US fighter pilots wore anti G trousers which looked so much like the type todays pilots wear yet never have seen any mention of RAF pilots wearing them.

I am correct to assume that the RAF did not feel that it was worth it or what?
I have seen so many photos of US airman wearing RAF flying clothing such as boots and flying helmets/goggles so some must have thought the quality was better?

Looking forward to reading other members thoughts/experiences


John

 

[Smithy]

It's probably a mixture of factors John but I just think that the Air Ministry thought that nothing more was really needed in terms of flying clothing during the war.

If we take Fighter Command and fighter pilots, very early on in the war (Battle of France) it was very much up to individual's taste in terms of what to wear on ops. We can see this already with photos of the AASF in France. Cockpit heating improved during the war and really in terms of mid to late war RAF fighter pilots, the trend was to use BD with woollen underwear and a jumper during the colder months. Interestingly though if we look at the 2 Norwegian fighter squadrons under RAF administration and who had been issued A-2 jackets during training in Little Norway in Canada they seemed to use an American approach to their flying gear, hardly surprising seeing as lot of them were using A-2, and American goggles etc.

In terms of Bomber Command, once again I think the AM thought that everything was pretty much covered, they had Irvin suits and it seems that AM thought that this along with issue SD (early war) or BD (mid late war) with jumpers/woollen undergarments was more than enough.

Cheers,

Tim

 

[Roughwear]

This is very interesting. The development of RAF flying clothing and kit during the War indicates that the AM was concerned with improving clothing and flying kit.

At the outbreak of War the RAF issued the Irvin suit and the '30 pattern Sidcot suit to aircrew. Some pilots wore their privately purchased prestige suits. Wired Irvin suits, which had the wiring looms for the heated gloves and boots were developed for bomber crews around 1937 and remained in use for much of the War. The Sidcot suit, which was introduced in 1930 went through two developments with the 1940 pattern and the electrically wired 1941 pattern. Electrically heated suits were introduced from early 1942 fro bomber crew.
The AM experimented with a more functional cloth uniform to replace the privately purchased SD in 1940. Early versions of suits aircrew were worn by several pilots, including Brian Lane, in the BoB prior to their introduction in 1941. Parachutes underwent significant development with the phasing out of the old 32 pattern ones with the much improved 41 pattern ones.

The Mk 111 and Mk 111a goggles, which were used widely in the Battle of Britain, were rapidly superseded by the Mk IV and later MK VII and Mk VIII. The MK VII and MK VIII were popular with USAAF pilots and aircrew. The early War B-Type helmet was gradually replaced by the improved C-Types and oxygen masks were transformed from the poorly fitting D-type to the E and G-Type masks. The H-Type mask, which was initially introduced in late 1944 for high altitude photo reconnaissance pilots continued to be in use for several decades after the War. Boots went through significant development from the 1930 pattern boots through to the 1943 Escape boots. Admittedly there were issues with the 1939 and 1940 pattern boots!

All this is an much more is explored in great detail by Mick Prodger in his three books on flying helmets, clothing and equipment.

 

[Smithy]

The real question I think Andrew is whether there was any real revolution in flying clothing during WWII with the RAF.
Yes there were improvements in terms of specific flying equipment, helmets, goggles, radio and microphone devices but I still argue that there was little ground breaking developments in terms of flying clothing itself.

If you flew in the RAF in 1918 and were issued a Sidcot suit it was almost exactly the same item of clothing you could be issued in the 1930s.

If we take boot design after 1940 it did indeed change, but more as a reaction to increased RAF operations over occupied Europe and the need to have a boot which could be used for evasion purposes.

I'm just not convinced that the attitude to flying clothing was entirely different in terms of how the AM considered things from the start of the war til the end.

 

[Roughwear]

Tim I did not argue there was a revolution in RAF flying clothing and equipment as this was not John's original question. With War there developments for sure in aircrew clothing and equipment, but there were greater ones with a/c technology and of the course the jet engine!

 

[Smithy]

Sorry Andrew, I hope I didn't come across as combative, definitely not my intention!

 

[Roughwear]

No you didn't Tim.

 

[better duck]

My thoughts on this one: maybe the RAF's flying clothing was sufficient for the conditions under which RAF aircrew operated. Whereas the USAAF flew at altitudes of > 25,000 ft, the RAF (bombers) flew at much lower altitudes, with less extreme conditions.

 

[Roughwear]

Good point Peter. What about the RAF fighters which were flying over 30,000 ft from 1941? Some were in combat with German fighters at 40,000 ft+ later in the War

 

[better duck]

I would think heating the cockpits of single engine fighters and their reconnaisance derivatives wouldn't be much of a problem. I always thought that that was why you don't see many fighter pilots in B3's and the like. Even B-17 and B24 pilots weren't dressed in heavy sheepskin, as the cockpits were decently heated. Not so for the crew aft of the main wings .....

 

[coalman]

I am just wondering, there is much photographic proof of US airmen wearing RAF flying clothing , but is there any photo's of RAF personal wearing US air force flying clothing, also does anybody know if RAF pilots ever wore anti G trousers as like the ones US fighter pilots did.

John

 

[jack31916]

I am just wondering, there is much photographic proof of US airmen wearing RAF flying clothing , but is there any photo's of RAF personal wearing US air force flying clothing, also does anybody know if RAF pilots ever wore anti G trousers as like the ones US fighter pilots did.

John

See page 26 of this link concerning Anti G-suits:
https://www.aerosociety.com/media/4847/a-brief-history-of-flying-clothing.pdf

 

[Smithy]

I am just wondering, there is much photographic proof of US airmen wearing RAF flying clothing , but is there any photo's of RAF personal wearing US air force flying clothing, also does anybody know if RAF pilots ever wore anti G trousers as like the ones US fighter pilots did.

John

Hi John,

As I mentioned above the Norwegian aircrew who trained at Little Norway in Canada and went on to serve in both RAF administered Norwegian squadrons and regular RAF units were issued US flying clothing and kit in Canada in an agreement with the Norwegian government and armed forces in exile. This equipment was subsequently used operationally and is the only known official use of US flying clothing and equipment at a unit level within the RAF. Interestingly in terms of flying jackets with these personnel, A-2s were issued but US sheepskin jackets seem not to have been and rather some Norwegian aircrew seem to have been issued Irvins whilst on operational conversion with OTUs once based in the UK.

Cheers,

Tim

 

[unclegrumpy]

Two good books on this topic...from the American side:

https://www.amazon.com/Combat-Flyin...r=1-3-fkmr0&keywords=flight+clothing+sweeting

https://www.amazon.com/Combat-Flyin...r=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=flight+clothing+sweeting

I think a large part of the difference between the RAF and USAAF approach can be explained based on a couple of factors. First being the U.S. was not under attack, and had the resources and scientific brainpower to spend on optimizing these things. Second, the huge size of the USAAF meant that more had to produced, and the material had to do more things....fly higher, farther, faster, etc... There was also the desire to maximize production and to find equal or better substitutes for materials....like horse hides...that became scarce as the war progressed.

As far as the Norwegians, their story is interesting. Their Government financed their flight trading operations in Canada outside Toronto at "Little Norway". Early on this was through a fund raising campaign called "Wings for Norway", which had broad support in both the US and Canada. American Cities sponsored aircraft used for training...and flight gear.

Most of the Norwegians earlier flight gear was of either American or Canadian manufacture, and much of that was commercially made. I have never seen the tag in a Norwegian RNoAF worn A-2, but would not be surprised to find...actually would expect...them to be commercially made versions. For example the goggles they wore were a commercial style that was sold in the American Aviation supply catalogs as a "Navy" style.

Once the Norwegians left Canada, and were absorbed into the RAF, their kit became like the rest of the RAF....though you do see later war photos of RNoAF Spitfire pilots still wearing their A-2s...clearly they liked them.

 

[unclegrumpy]

Here is a link to a two part wartime video about Little Norway:

http://play.tojsiab.com/WlhJcUVBWndTZlEz

 

[Smithy]

Once the Norwegians left Canada, and were absorbed into the RAF, their kit became like the rest of the RAF....though you do see later war photos of RNoAF Spitfire pilots still wearing their A-2s...clearly they liked them.

Sorry but this isn't entirely correct. There is ample photographic evidence of continued use of US flying clothing and kit by Norwegians during RAF operational service and especially with 331 and 332 Sqns from 1941 and right up until war's end. Photos also demonstrate that new arrivals on these sqns were still arriving with US issue clothing (most notably A-2s) and various pieces of flying kit and also using this equipment right up until the final months of the war. Cato Guhnfeldt's 6 volume (soon to be a final 7th book) history of 331 and 332 documents all of this with literally hundreds of photographic examples of this blend of usage of RAF and US kit throughout these units' wartime service.

 

[unclegrumpy]

I have seen many of those photos as well, and realize those two squadrons wore a wide variety of gear. However, as the war progressed, percentage wise, I think those squadrons were more the exception rather than the rule.

The interesting question that I have yet to see answered, is how much of the American produced flight gear that the Norwegians wore was from US Government AC and USN stocks....which for example, with A-2's that would mean it have AC labeling...or were the exact same designs from the same companies, but purchased on the civilian market.

If you look in some of the catalogs that the companies that sold flight gear in the US put out in the 1930's, you will see all sorts of different helmets, googles, and jackets sold as either Army or Navy style. Often these were exactly the same items that were sold to the US Government, with exactly the same markings, which often simply were no marking except for the size. Prewar American military pilots often bought parts of their own flight gear, which further complicates things...meaning making absolute statements when it comes to uniformity and what may or may not have been worn.

This is one of the things that leads me to believe that much of the US style clothing the Norwegians wore was not "issue"...meaning what was from stocks being issued to American military pilots, but rather identical items that were procured on the civilian market, and then issued to the RNoAF. I think this would have been particularly true in the time period before the US entered the war when the Norwegian Government was fundraising to equip their pilots training in Canada. This would have been for two reasons, first it would have been the easiest pathway to order from a commercial supplier. And second, the US was not in the war, and for political reasons, our Government was trying to do it's best to stay out and appear neutral.

One thing on my bucket list would be to see the labels in several early war surviving A-2 style jackets that were worn by Norwegians. I am not sure that a late war example would truly answer this question, because by the time we get into 1944 or 1945, a resourceful Norwegian fighter pilot or supply sergeant would have ample opportunity to possibly do some sort of trade with an American counterpart.

I realize I am cutting a fine line here, but I think without some further evidence, one has to be careful to draw conclusions from some of photographs we see...procured or issued...it is hard to tell.

 

[Smithy]

Perhaps you have access to more information than me. I've only commented in this topic in relation to the Norwegians because I happen to work for one of the national aviation museums here which is part of Luftforsvaret and where we have access to the actual objects.

But I'm always happy to bow to those who happen to have access to better information or new information to which I do not have the privilege of knowing.

 

[unclegrumpy]

In the late 1980's and early 1990's, I met a number of RNoAF pilots, and asked them about this sort of stuff, mostly while we looked through their pictures and mementos. I don't recall any being Spitfire pilots, but several were in Bomber Command, flew Sunderlands, or Mosquitos. None had A-2's, but several still had their Irvins and other associated RAF issue gear....though most just had pictures and their postwar service uniforms.

I also looked for flight gear back then, and found or was given some items. Back then, I had several Norwegian worn Canadian produced flight suits, two with the Canadian circle "C" broad arrow, and one very similar, but with a Canadian commercial label. One of the guys still had his original flight helmet from Little Norway on his bookshelf, which was Canadian, again with the circle "C" broad arrow. He also had a pair of American made googles, which were of the style that the US Navy used before the war.

Back then, there was not much of this type of material on display in Norway. My recollection was the Museum was basically a hanger with some planes, and then lots of airplane parts....what sticks in my mind are the pieces of a number of JU-52s that came out of a high mountain lake...which were neat because they were well preserved.

I am sure things have improved since then, and there is likely a lot of new material that has been donated as these pilots have gotten up in years. It would be really interesting to survey and catalog what is in the collection (and others) now, focusing in on some of these details. Someone could write an interesting book, because there was a lot going on...hopefully when that happens, it won't be in French : )

 

[Smithy]

In the late 1980's and early 1990's, I met a number of RNoAF pilots, and asked them about this sort of stuff, mostly while we looked through their pictures and mementos. I don't recall any being Spitfire pilots, but several were in Bomber Command, flew Sunderlands, or Mosquitos. None had A-2's, but several still had their Irvins and other associated RAF issue gear....though most just had pictures and their postwar service uniforms.

I also looked for flight gear back then, and found or was given some items. Back then, I had several Norwegian worn Canadian produced flight suits, two with the Canadian circle "C" broad arrow, and one very similar, but with a Canadian commercial label. One of the guys still had his original flight helmet from Little Norway on his bookshelf, which was Canadian, again with the circle "C" broad arrow. He also had a pair of American made googles, which were of the style that the US Navy used before the war.

Back then, there was not much of this type of material on display in Norway. My recollection was the Museum was basically a hanger with some planes, and then lots of airplane parts....what sticks in my mind are the pieces of a number of JU-52s that came out of a high mountain lake...which were neat because they were well preserved.

I am sure things have improved since then, and there is likely a lot of new material that has been donated as these pilots have gotten up in years. It would be really interesting to survey and catalog what is in the collection (and others) now, focusing in on some of these details. Someone could write an interesting book, because there was a lot going on...hopefully when that happens, it won't be in French : )