Why do USN shearlings seem to fall apart ?

[Peter Graham]

I sent a message to the seller of this M445a just to tell him that it's not a repro http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271990960141? ... 31c16&cp=1 which got me thinking. So many Navy shearlings seem to be in this state, even though most of them look to have had little use. I'm speaking from experience. I once owned a mint unissued M445a. The first time I put it on my hand went through the cuff. Surely it's not down to poor quality shearling as so many exhibit the same weakness. It can't all have been bad. My bet is whatever they were treated with doesn't allow the leather to breathe. The coating seems to be thicker and more crinkly than on AAF jackets. It's a real shame because they would make great wearers if they didn't fall apart ! Anyone else have a theory on this ?

 

[bazelot]

I also love the M-445As and I saw and handled a ton of them. I only saw 3 that could be worn. I still have one that I wear when I got to Pittsburgh . Those jackets were extremely well built but I believe the waterproofing they applied to the shearling weakened it over time to the point of giving it the consistency of paper.

 

[tonyknowles]

I concur with your theories, I have had the same experience with navy shearling jackets, they just seem to fall apart, even when the jacket looks to be in good condition. I always assumed it was because of the finish or treatment of the leather that the navy specified.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Maybe something to do with the interior of the skin being used as the exterior. My theory is that the suede side is loosely connected fibers much less capable of dealing with the elements. Even being finished with lacquer or whatever it was they used, it was susceptible to soaking up moisture as opposed to repelling like epidermis.

 

[John Lever]

I wonder if exposure to salt is a factor, or perhaps the skins were tanned poorly ?

 

[Falcon_52]

Salt exposure may be one factor but the Coastal Command Irvin jackets that show up from time to time do not seem to have the same issue. Both jackets must have had similar sea exposure, right?

Noel

 

[John Lever]

Not salt then,probably just dodgy tanning.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Not salt then,probably just dodgy tanning.

Yeah probably that, couldn't have anything to do with exposing an inside out natural skin to the elements, stretching, and wear. :lol:

Imaging how the smallest pinhole or crack in that lacquer allowed moisture in that then had a limited way out. Either through the tightly woven fibers of the epidermis and then a nice fluffy interior to dwell in for a while. Or very slowly back out through the voids in the surface it entered. For seventy years this has been going on with WW2 shearling jackets to various degrees, rain, humidity, lack of humidity. The perfect formula for dry rot. I've been rummaging through basements, attics, barns, and you name it from one end of this country up and down to the other end running across every possible dry rotted material known to man. Just seems like common sense to me, improper storage. Put a damp sock in a ziplock, poke a few holes in it, and see how it smells in a week, about the same thing going on with these Navy jackets to this day.

 

[Vcruiser]

Then explain why the Brit's Irvins hold up much better and more often easily wearable than USA shearlings ... :?
Pretty damp weather over there.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Why does an A2 Jacket hold up better? Or any other leather that's allowed to breath the way it was naturally intended to?

Don't be confused Van. I've run across countless USN shearling jackets here in the states that I've walked away from because they're falling apart. Then once in a while there's one with cracking leather looking like it's about to break but strong as an ox. Maybe because it was stored in unusually ideal conditions.

Maybe you could start your own thread -

"Why do Irvin Jackets hold up better than USN shearlings"

For now, I'm just throwing out some ideas, thoughts, as to why USN (as per the thread title) degrade. Based on 30 or so years digging through rusty, dry rotted, and moldy stuff in search of treasures, the construction of these jackets reminds me of similar situations. Like how a laminated particle board soaks up moisture, swells, gets moldy, and breaks apart. That process is a lot faster but very similar. Or how the inside of a wall ends up after moisture is sealed in, and many other examples. Just seems like an inside out artificially sealed on the wrong side skin, doesn't work quite as well as a right side out one that's allowed to breath naturally. Another perfect example is the Moto helmet I just posted here. The leather covered band where the visor would be had a very thin covering of top grain leather covering a spongy absorbent material. That leather covering turned slimy and almost like gel when I wet it and basically fell off. Forgive me for thinking too much, but I'm guessing the spongy material soaked up moisture and the covering hindered the release of that moisture since the 50's allowing rot to take place many times over. Hey, maybe I am thinking a little too deep here but in the past it's paid off nicely allowing me to solve an enormous amount of mysteries that became closely guarded secrets in my profession. I could tell ya more but I'd have to .......... :lol:

 

[Vcruiser]

I'm not confused A2JP.
..but of course you're right..'wrong side out'...so there's no use for anyone else to even comment...or you might start repeating yourself, again.. :shock:
You da Man.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

:? This face means confused, Seems my input has irritated you once again Van. very sorry, I was just offering a few possibilities.

Everyone else, You may remember the two F-1 Pilot suits I bought a little over a year ago at the swap meet in Vegas for ten bucks each and posted them here. Well the lady I bought them from told me she sold "three fur lined bomber jackets the night before for 40 bucks each" I almost puked. I met a guy over the summer while having a yard sale before I moved, the guy that bought those three mint B3's, electrically heated flight boots, and few the parachute harnesses. He showed at my sale because I advertised WW2 collectibles. Just a wild guess, but I'm thinking the B3's remained in perfect condition because of next to zero humidity in the desert. the stuff probably remained in Las vegas since WW2 coming out of Nellis.

 

[Peter Graham]

The salt exposure theory doesn't work because a lot of these jackets have very little or no wear, like the one in the ebay link in the first post or the one that I owned. Likewise the inside out argument. All shearling jackets are made that way. OK, there's plenty of tattered B-3 and Irvins about but they are usually well worn examples and not minters like a lot of the Navy jackets. I reckon that the Navy specified some sort of special treatment for their jackets that spelt death for them seventy years down the line.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

One thing or another promoted dry rot in this type of skin more than others. So why do they fall apart? Dry rot. What caused it? Aliens :lol:

 

[Vcruiser]

The salt exposure theory doesn't work because a lot of these jackets have very little or no wear, like the one in the ebay link in the first post or the one that I owned. Likewise the inside out argument. All shearling jackets are made that way. OK, there's plenty of tattered B-3 and Irvins about but they are usually well worn examples and not minters like a lot of the Navy jackets. I reckon that the Navy specified some sort of special treatment for their jackets that spelt death for them seventy years down the line.

I agree. Makes better sense to me.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Just kidding around Peter. But I agree as well. If I had to venture a guess without any grounds to base it on, I'd say some kind of mystery chemical and or treatment.

 

[Roughwear]

The salt exposure theory doesn't work because a lot of these jackets have very little or no wear, like the one in the ebay link in the first post or the one that I owned. Likewise the inside out argument. All shearling jackets are made that way. OK, there's plenty of tattered B-3 and Irvins about but they are usually well worn examples and not minters like a lot of the Navy jackets. I reckon that the Navy specified some sort of special treatment for their jackets that spelt death for them seventy years down the line.

I agree. Makes better sense to me.

This is the most plausible explanation. We know that polyacrilate lacquer used on depot re-paint A2s could literally skin the leather and I suspect that the coatings used on naval shearlings turned the skin brittle over the years.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

It seems the solvents and other components could literally displace and push natural oils out the opposite side helping to speed up dry rot. Moreover, if moisture is not able to enter and exit equally through both sides it is getting trapped for longer than it should. You see the same basic thing on period patches where paint was used to finish / seal the leather, cracking on the finished side and deterioration on the other. This happens with a lot of vintage leather items but here on this forum we might think it's specific to Navy jackets. Like on the helmet I mentioned. The unsealed leather with strap is still as strong as the day it was made and the leather sealed one side fell off when wet, both leather, on the same item, same age. Old furniture, baseball gloves, and other leather items allowed to breathe seem to endure the test of time. Why Irvins do better? No idea.

 

[Peter Graham]

Why Irvins do better? No idea.

It's not only Irvin's. There's a lot of B-3's out there with no notion of falling apart any time soon.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Why Irvins do better? No idea.

It's not only Irvin's. There's a lot of B-3's out there with no notion of falling apart any time soon.

Yeah Peter, all covered already and I don't want to irritate someone again by "repeating myself" Bottom line here is just a bunch of wild guesses including myself and those who agree with this or that. All very good guesses but in the end, just speculation. All I know is what I see in a very wide variety of leather goods over many years, I call it "gonzo" a word said under my breath when I think dry rot before confirming by touch. Like a pair of leather boxing gloves sealed with red finish over the weekend that showed exterior cracking. May be a specific thing with Navy shearlings but it just seems like a very common thing with old leather in general to me.