Who has a new line Bill Kelso A2?

[Jeff M]

The basic A-2 shows £549.99 GBP which includes 20% VAT and UK shipping

http://www.eastmanleather.com/product_i ... cts_id=174

What price comes up if you access the site from the States ?

I'm comparing like to like.

ELC's "Original Contract" design ;

http://www.eastmanleather.com/product_i ... cts_id=163

£ 699.99 = $1085...plus $62 shipping and approx. $60 duties= approx. $1200

to a Goodwear contract.;

http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/a2_star.html

$1149 + $25 shipping = aprox. $1175

When I pull up the "standard" ELC A2, it says nothing about VAT and shipping being included in the advertised price;

http://www.eastmanleather.com/product_i ... cts_id=174

I just asked Gary about the price of a jacket last night. He emailed that;
"The price you see on the website doesn't include VAT to the US, so the price you see is the price you would pay (plus postage of course)."

Is ELC charging us folks in the states a higher base price than you folks in the UK??

 

[m444uk]

I just asked Gary about the price of a jacket last night. He emailed that;
"The price you see on the website doesn't include VAT to the US, so the price you see is the price you would pay (plus postage of course)."

Mr Eastman's quote makes no sense :roll:
VAT is not chargeable on exports out of the EU zone but their website includes it. Unless of course the checkout cart automatically deducts it when you pull the trigger.

 

[Jeff M]

I just asked Gary about the price of a jacket last night. He emailed that;
"The price you see on the website doesn't include VAT to the US, so the price you see is the price you would pay (plus postage of course)."

Mr Eastman's quote makes no sense :roll:
VAT is not chargeable on exports out of the EU zone but their website includes it. Unless of course the checkout cart automatically deducts it when you pull the trigger.

Well...I just went through the on line process of paying for a jacket.
The final price charged to my card was the full price listed on their web site, plus the extra shipping to the US. No VAT deduction when I pulled the trigger.

As far as I can recall, this has always been my experience with ELC.

Where do you see that their web site includes the VAT in the listed prices? I don't see that anywhere.
You sure that UK orders don't have the VAT added AFTER you place the order?

 

[Persimmon]

[Mr Eastman's quote makes no sense :roll:
VAT is not chargeable on exports out of the EU zone but their website includes it. Unless of course the checkout cart automatically deducts it when you pull the trigger.

Well...I just went through the on line process of paying for a jacket.
The final price charged to my card was the full price listed on their web site, plus the extra shipping to the US. No deduction when I pulled the trigger.

As far as I can recall, this has always been my experience with ELC.

Where do you see that their web site includes the VAT in the listed prices? I don't see that anywhere.
You sure that UK orders don't have the VAT added AFTER you place the order?[/quote]






I have bought several Eastman jackets and the price quoted on the website is what was charged.
It must have included the VAT of 20% in that amount.
Otherwise Eastman are not charging VAT to their UK customers which is illegal.
And of course they are...

Looks like Eastman are charging the full price to their overseas customers outwith the European Union ( ie) the States etc and thats not exactly fair.
In my business when I supply to US, Australian etc customers I always quote ex VAT.
They demand and indeed expect no less...
Perhaps purchasers need to phone in an order and ask for a overseas non VAT price first and for those already charged they should apply for a refund

 

[Jeff M]

.
I have bought several Eastman jackets and the price quoted on the website is what was charged.
It must have included the VAT of 20% in that amount.
Otherwise Eastman are not charging VAT to their UK customers which is illegal.
And of course they are...

Looks like Eastman are charging the full price to their overseas customers outwith the European Union ( ie) the States etc and thats not exactly fair.
In my business when I supply to US, Australian etc customers I always quote ex VAT.
They demand and indeed expect no less...
Perhaps purchasers need to phone in an order and ask for a overseas non VAT price first and for those already charged they should apply for a refund

Whoa!!

That's not fair.
I'll check with Gary again..find out what the situation is.

 

[m444uk]

Jeff, we like to keep you ex-colonial types under the thumb !

Retail websites in the UK normally include tax. For example this:
http://www.youmustcreate.com/products/j ... er-jacket/
then scowl down to the sales tax paragraph here
http://www.youmustcreate.com/payment-and-security/

When I went to their shop during the January sales that was the marked price. I bought a Perry type B-3 from them for £495 (after negotiation)
and the invoice showed the VAT content. So £412.50 + vat £82.50.

Business websites, for example computer components supplier, would show ex-tax prices with the VAT content displayed and added on checkout.

 

[Jeff M]

Jeff, we like to keep you ex-colonial types under the thumb !

Retail websites in the UK normally include tax. For example this:
http://www.youmustcreate.com/products/j ... er-jacket/
then scowl down to the sales tax paragraph here
http://www.youmustcreate.com/payment-and-security/

When I went to their shop during the January sales that was the marked price. I bought a Perry type B-3 from them for £495 (after negotiation)
and the invoice showed the VAT content. So £412.50 + vat £82.50.

Business websites, for example computer components supplier, would show ex-tax prices with the VAT content displayed and added on checkout.

Well, something is wrong here.
Gary specifically stated in his email that the price shown on the ELC web site was the price I would be (and was) charged. This was after I specifically asked him if the price shown included the VAT...ie, would I receive a 20% discount off the advertised price.
As Gary said, I was charged the full advertised price at check out.
That left me with the understanding that if I were in the UK, the VAT would have been added to the advertised price.

Is this legal?
The price listed is either inclusive of the VAT...in which case I would expect a 20% discount buying from the US, or not..in which case I would expect a UK buyer to be charged an additional 20%.
If ELC is charging different "base" prices for their products depending on what country the purchase comes from, I'd think the UK tax man would be interested.
If I were the tax man, I'd argue that since the price you are advertising your product at is in effect NOT inclusive of the VAT to a protion of your customers, than we will consider that price as the "true product price"...and you owe us a LOT of back VAT's!
I have a cousin who is an attorney in the UK. Think I'll ask him what his take in this is.

 

[m444uk]

Eastman's only duty is to collect VAT revenue for the customs and excise man on UK and EU sales.

Sales elsewhere are only of interest to the Inland Revenue as pertaining to any profits earned.

Eastman is a superbly run family business in my view. They created a market and keep it going with new and improved product.

BTW. the aero website seems to set up the same way AFAIK.

BK is probably to small turnover-wise to need to be registered for VAT ?

 

[SuinBruin]

Looks like Eastman gets a bonus 20% markup on sales to the U.S.

I think that's pretty uncool and borderline fraudulent. I have no problem buying stuff made overseas (though I prefer to buy from first world countries like Japan, the UK, Germany, etc.), but I expect to not get dinged for taxes and fees I shouldn't have to pay (just as someone in Europe buying from a retailer in California shouldn't have to pay California sales tax). It seems that Eastman is using the VAT-inclusive nature of British pricing to sneak an extra profit from sales to America.

So much for buying an Eastman USN sweater.

Edited to add what the British government has to say on the subject (bold added):

VAT is a tax charged on goods used in the EU, so if goods are exported outside the EU, VAT isn't charged. You can zero-rate the sale, provided you get and keep evidence of the export, and comply with all other laws. You must also make sure the goods are exported, and you must get the evidence, within three months from the time of sale.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/int ... oods.htm#6

 

[Jeff M]

Eastman's only duty is to collect VAT revenue for the customs and excise man on UK and EU sales.

Sales elsewhere are only of interest to the Inland Revenue as pertaining to any profits earned.

Eastman is a superbly run family business in my view. They created a market and keep it going with new and improved product.

BTW. the aero website seems to set up the same way AFAIK.

BK is probably to small turnover-wise to need to be registered for VAT ?

Moot point.

Bottom line, it looks like I am getting charged 20% more for this product than I should.
If I purchased it in the UK, returned to the US and applied for the VAT refund, I would be paying 20% less.
I am in affect getting charged the VAT..but it is going into Eastman's pockets rather than to the UK government.

 

[Jeff M]

Eastman's only duty is to collect VAT revenue for the customs and excise man on UK and EU sales.

Sales elsewhere are only of interest to the Inland Revenue as pertaining to any profits earned.

I have an email in to ELC. Awaiting explanation.

Seems to me that an argument could be made by the UK Tax and Revenue department that the price of their jackets is what is listed on their web site. That's what i was told.

If ELC not collecting 20% IN ADDITION to that price from their UK customers, (assuming ELC is not paying the VAT out of their own profit margin) then they are witholding the tax revenue.
If it turns out the price listed on their web site DOES include the VAT for UK customers, then I would expect the price for non UK customers to be 20% less.

...

BK is probably to small turnover-wise to need to be registered for VAT ?

Nope.
If you look at the bottom of their web page where their fax and telephone numbers are listed, they post their VAT registration number....

http://www.eastmanleather.com/index.php?cPath=21

"VAT NUMBER: GB462851045"

 

[m444uk]

Eh ? BK in my post is Bill Kelso ! Are they VAT registered ? If they are I would give them my GB VAT number and get the goods sent without tax at source. I originally had to register when my business turnover exceeded £75000.

Eastman jackets have normally been more expensive State side. When HPA were the sole US distributor the B-3 redskin was 60% more expensive than in the UK. HPA made the decision that is what they could sell them for. Eastman directed all US enquires to HPA.

Later the website came along, however initially that was for UK trade only (or other territories without their own distributors.) With the growth of the internet and greater price transparency Eastman opened the website to all. Their policy since then has been one price for all. As I said previously other small companies do this. It both simplifies things and is another area of profit for them. Eastman's relationship with the tax man is non of our business.

I can understand nobody wants to pay more, and heck I get annoyed myself if I feel I haven't sniffed out the best deal, but it's Eastman's business decision to make at the end of the day.

 

[Jeff M]

Eh ? BK in my post is Bill Kelso ! Are they VAT registered ? If they are I would give them my GB VAT number and get the goods sent without tax at source. I originally had to register when my business turnover exceeded £75000.

Eastman jackets have normally been more expensive State side. When HPA were the sole US distributor the B-3 redskin was 60% more expensive than in the UK. HPA made the decision that is what they could sell them for. Eastman directed all US enquires to HPA.

Later the website came along, however initially that was for UK trade only (or other territories without their own distributors.) With the growth of the internet and greater price transparency Eastman opened the website to all. Their policy since then has been one price for all. As I said previously other small companies do this. It both simplifies things and is another area of profit for them. Eastman's relationship with the tax man is non of our business.

I can understand nobody wants to pay more, and heck I get annoyed myself if I feel I haven't sniffed out the best deal, but it's Eastman's business decision to make at the end of the day.

You threw me a curve ball. Here we were discussing what Eastman is selling their jackets for in the US vs UK, how the VAT applies to them, etc, and you switched over to BK in that last sentence.

I have no idea if BK has to have a VAT number. Not relevant to the Eastman question.
Re; their (Eastman's, not BK's ) relationship to the tax man...our "business or not", it is a part of my question.

My even questioning what folks in the US were paying for ELC items came about because of your earlier statement in this thread;

...
Are you guys Stateside getting 20% off the advertised Eastman web price ? You should be as it includes 20% UK vat (sales tax) which is not payable on exports out of the EU.

I agree. We should.

 

[m444uk]

Hi,
Got to go where the market is taking us...
the original plan BK had i.e. the decent affordable A-2 went down the gutter, unfortunately
tried that for 3 years now (since 2009) and didn't work out, didn't even breakeven the costs as in 3 years didn't even manage to sell more than 40 jackets.
At the same time the hi-end, high priced jacket makers were so much busy that were not even able keep realistic delivery times. It became clear that no-one cared for affordable A-2 jackets. Not to mention 'house jackets'.
Quality and authenticity seemed to be all that mattered, regardless of price.

This market relies on collectors and jacket enthusiasts who are picky about details. So it's either comply, or die.
BK's sales only started to pick up when quality was improved and started to offer more models. But there's still long way to go. BK is still trying to keep the prices low and has not closed the deal with any supplier yet.
BK is waiting to receive new samples from various sources and then will make a choice.

This business is so difficult that even if BK sold the exact same jacket with ELC at half price, people would still be buying ELC. Because, it's all in the name. So, how is BK supposed to build a good name if they don't offer high quality product?
For your info, BK's Arco 18775 is better than Aero's jackets but still zero (0) jackets sold.

BK could provide jacket with smooth, lifeless, characterless leathers like ELC used to do before they caliberized and warhorserized everything.
But NOBODY wants those jackets anymore. People who own those and try to sell them on ebay are struggling to get over GBP 200.

The old standards repro with smooth leathers seems to be useless and not worthing anything more than a mall jacket nowadays.

The work and the amount of detail on these jackets demand a high price. If BK could sell the 'decent affordable A-2' by the thousands, then it would make sense. BK tried to cooperate with US retailers to supply them with cheap jackets but was ignored and rejected, because they already had deals with others (e.g. Cockpit), because they didn't want to bother with imports, or because BK jackets were not "Made in USA"

So when all options run out, the only place of refuge was to increase the quality (and concequently) the price.
Might keep a generic model at much lower price, but still need considering.

Interesting post, very honest. I can't agree with your last paragraph though. You are involved in the luxury goods market where as you state brand name is all. It doesn't then follow you can enter it by increasing price and quality. A classic business mistake. That market maybe saturated. A new business needs to find it's own unique niche and follow that up with good marketing. For example, how do people find your website ? Do you advertise in magazines, attend shows etc. Try and get your company profiled in magazines like 'Mens' File' which is read by the Japanese http://mensfile.com/

 

[SuinBruin]

New thread on the VAT issue here:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12850&p=118695#p118695

 

[m444uk]

My even questioning what folks in the US were paying for ELC items came about because of your earlier statement in this thread;

...
Are you guys Stateside getting 20% off the advertised Eastman web price ? You should be as it includes 20% UK vat (sales tax) which is not payable on exports out of the EU.

I agree. We should.

I mentioned BK because this is er... a BK thread
Perhaps a phone call would be in order. It's not like Eastman are some big company with rules set in stone. When I visited there were 2 people sewing and one pattern cutter.
To my mind they are in danger of pricing themselves out of the US A-2 market. If Goodwear employed the same number of people why would anyone buy an Eastman if the delivery times were the same ?

 

[Jeff M]

....

I mentioned BK because this is er... a BK thread
Perhaps a phone call would be in order. It's not like Eastman are some big company with rules set in stone. When I visited there were 2 people sewing and one pattern cutter.
To my mind they are in danger of pricing themselves out of the US A-2 market. If Goodwear employed the same number of people why would anyone buy an Eastman if the delivery times were the same ?

Depending on the reply to the email I sent, I was thinking of giving them a call this evening.
I have never come across a company in a truly open market that sells their products priced on where the buyer is buying from...outside what tax regulations require.
It never occurred to me that ELC would be doing this.
Guess I'll find out.

 

[Jeff M]

I am posting this on this thread also, because it seems there is more action on this one than the one in the "General Discussion" section.


I received this reply from Gary when I asked him if they added the VAT to UK orders;


"Because we sell internationally, to keep things simple, we have the same price for everyone - for sales in the UK, we absorb the VAT element."

ie, I am being charged VAT even though I don't live in the UK.

I canceled my order.
It's as much the fact that I am paying 20% more for the item than I should, as the way ELC is trying to slip it by.
I'll stick with GoodWear.

(Come on BK!! Get up and running!!)

 

[arclight]

I believe Aero is conducting the same systemic method of ripping off the American consumer.


Good work Jeff M!

 

[m444uk]

OK, on first reading Mr Eastman's statement about VAT makes no sense but actually it tells us what is going on.
When I sell something I issue a receipt showing the VAT content. I then hand this money over every quarter to the Vatman.
There is another option for small businesses. You estimate turnover and pay VAT on that. No need for two sets of books
accounting for VAT and non-VAT sales and it makes things easier for cash sales at shows . In short there is no reclaimable VAT content on non-EU sales.