USAF use of Army nomex jackets?

[FtrPlt]

I've been seeing a few USAF badged Army nomex flight jackets around recently. I'm curious to hear opinions as to whether these were actually used by USAF??

In my own USAF experience, I only wore the CWU-36 and -45. I never saw anyone else in anything but the same.

The only reason I can come up with would be an ALO (Air Liaison Officer) assigned to an Army unit. Even in that scenario, I can't really see the need to issue an Army flight jacket.

 

[watchmanjimg]

I've always relied on your picture from LJMilitaria's website as proof positive, but who knows? Three different examples all apparently patched in more or less regulation fashion suggests these are not "tour jackets", but it remains unclear under what circumstances these were worn. The one at far right looks to be from the 336th FS, which saw action in the Gulf War as well as the current conflict. I suppose it's possible some units considered these jackets better suited to use in forward areas than CWUs; again, pure speculation on my part.

 

[GoodTimesGone]

I was on a forum for military and former military members awhile back. On a thread discussing supply problems with flight jackets a USAF pilot stated that pilots in his squadron were issued the army tanker nomex jackets when there was a shortage of CWU jackets. He indicated that they liked them better than the CWUs because they were less bulky yet warm and lightweight. There is also a lighter weight version without the velcro tab on the back shoulder area. Both types are commonly found at bargain prices on ebay.
________________________________________________________________________________
Tom

 

[Monsoon]

I was on a forum for military and former military members awhile back. On a thread discussing supply problems with flight jackets a USAF pilot stated that pilots in his squadron were issued the army tanker nomex jackets when there was a shortage of CWU jackets. He indicated that they liked them better than the CWUs because they were less bulky yet warm and lightweight. There is also a lighter weight version without the velcro tab on the back shoulder area. Both types are commonly found at bargain prices on ebay.

I think I had said the same thing here or at the Fedora Lounge.

In 2003, we were issue with desert tanker jackets because there wasn't any desert CWU jackets. They were a light tan in color, about as heavy as a winter flight jacket and not as stiff. I liked it alot. I know some had a tizzy fit because they were "flame resistant" and not "flame proof".

The velcro flap in the back was for a rescue strap that tankers wear; the handle comes out of that flap. It's so you can drag a wounded tanker out of a hatch easily. At least in theory; doing it under fire would be sporty.

 

[FtrPlt]

Gents,
Here are my concerns with these:
- there are very few of them (i.e. did they all come from the same place?) but with a diverse array of badging.
- USAF regs are pretty clear that patches need to be removable for security reasons. Every one of these appear to have sewn on patches. The right-most jacket has a sewn-on nametape and wings and the nametape is on the wrong side.
- I can somewhat understand the logic of a shortage of tan/desert jackets but these are all the green jackets.
- I'm skeptical of the claim of a green CWU shortage. I was issued a CWU-36 and CWU-45 during flight training. I wore the -36 almost daily for years and now, 25+ years later, it's still going strong. It's not like these things wear out quickly.

The LJMilitaria photo is used for reference. There have been a handful of others up on eBay over the past few months.

Identifiers I'd like to see:
- what year(s) are the jackets from?
- Are the command patches TAC/SAC/MAC or ACC/AMC? Basically a means to determine if pre/post 1992

 

[FtrPlt]

The details on this particular jacket are listed as:
936BT - M/L, Dated 1984, Excellent Color, Subdued Patches: "4th TACTICAL FIGHTER WING", "336TH FTR SQDN. ROCKETEERS", and "TACTICAL AIR COMMAND". Blue-on-OG: Rank-sewn-on-shoulders, Pilot's Wing, and Name Tape. Minor wear, Used.....inquire

Using the above as timeline info, it puts the jacket between 1984 (when made) and 1991 (4th Tactical Fighter Wing became 4th Wing in APR 91). TAC became part of ACC in 1992.

Questions: The 336th Tac Ftr Sqdn was redesignated 336th Ftr Sqdn in 1991 (USAF dropped "Tactical" from all its unit designations). I don't know if the earlier patch included "Tac" on the scroll.

Assumptions: Army flight jackets are seen in two variations -- those with velcro for nametags and those without. For those with them, pretty simple -- standard flight suit tag was worn on the jacket. For those without, US ARMY embroidered tape on the (wearer's) left and NAME on the (wearer's) right. Wings, if worn, sat atop the US ARMY tape. The Army didn't require the badging to be removable so all of it was sewn on.

 

[watchmanjimg]

The details on this particular jacket are listed as:
936BT - M/L, Dated 1984, Excellent Color, Subdued Patches: "4th TACTICAL FIGHTER WING", "336TH FTR SQDN. ROCKETEERS", and "TACTICAL AIR COMMAND". Blue-on-OG: Rank-sewn-on-shoulders, Pilot's Wing, and Name Tape. Minor wear, Used.....inquire

Using the above as timeline info, it puts the jacket between 1984 (when made) and 1991 (4th Tactical Fighter Wing became 4th Wing in APR 91). TAC became part of ACC in 1992.

Questions: The 336th Tac Ftr Sqdn was redesignated 336th Ftr Sqdn in 1991 (USAF dropped "Tactical" from all its unit designations). I don't know if the earlier patch included "Tac" on the scroll.

Assumptions: Army flight jackets are seen in two variations -- those with velcro for nametags and those without. For those with them, pretty simple -- standard flight suit tag was worn on the jacket. For those without, US ARMY embroidered tape on the (wearer's) left and NAME on the (wearer's) right. Wings, if worn, sat atop the US ARMY tape. The Army didn't require the badging to be removable so all of it was sewn on.

The insignia on this particular example appear to suggest that the jacket was worn during the Rocketeers' service in the Gulf War. At that time TAC and the 4th TFW were still referred to as such, and circumstances would have warranted issuing whatever was available to meet mission requirements. The fact that the jackets are all green does not strike me as cause for concern as I don't think the desert version was introduced until years later.

Regarding your assumptions, I believe the protocol for Army aviation involves the use of standard Velcro nameplates. The sewn tapes are worn by armored vehicle crewmen, who are issued the winter-weight jacket with Velcro casualty evacuation strap. This feature was originally seen in an experimental Nomex coverall during the Vietnam era, which was not adopted until the Nomex CVC ensemble was specified for wear by M1 Abrams crewmen.

 

[FtrPlt]

Partially correct on the jackets. I served in USAF (early 1980s) - then US Army (mid-80s to early 90s) - and then ANG (mid 90s - 00s). I'm pretty familiar with the items issued although wasn't sure of the variations/designations until I started hanging around this site!

My USAF jackets were CWU-36 and CWU-45. Got the OG-106 green Army versions of the same jackets. My lightweight Army jacket has black velcro patch for the nametag. My winter jacket did not so has the nametapes and US Army on it. Some guys had the ALSE shop sew on the velcro. For whatever reason, I didn't. Along the same lines, we also had lightweight flight jackets with sewn-on name/US Army tapes. The latter seems to be common with guys who were in a few years earlier than me.

So I would contend that presence of absence of velcro for the nametag doesn't really mean all that much. In general terms, it would be more common to see velcro on both jackets but it wasn't an absolute.

The winter jacket merely has an opening to access the tanker extraction strap/harness. It's not actually a part of the jacket. Both the winter flight and tanker winter jacket (I don't think the tankers ever received the lightweight version) have the opening (exception to the very earliest versions which were marked as Jacket, Flyers, Cold Weather. Later versions share the exact same nomenclature -- Jacket High Temperature Resistant.

I'm not suggesting the Army jacket with AF badging couldn't happen. Just seems odd that there are suddenly a bunch of them up for sale.

 

[FtrPlt]

Just to illustrate some variations of Army nomex, here a re few offerings currently on eBay:

This one is typical of the late 1970s. Embroidered name/US ARMY. Wings above.

By the mid-1980s, they were being issued with the velcro already attached:

By the late 1980s, the velcro started showing up green instead of black.

I believe the embroidered name/Army tapes were a continuation of the practice adopted with the MA-1 -- which preceded the nomex jackets. This is a typical Army MA-1

 

[watchmanjimg]

Just to illustrate some variations of Army nomex, here a re few offerings currently on eBay:

This one is typical of the late 1970s. Embroidered name/US ARMY. Wings above.

By the mid-1980s, they were being issued with the velcro already attached:

By the late 1980s, the velcro started showing up green instead of black.

I believe the embroidered name/Army tapes were a continuation of the practice adopted with the MA-1 -- which preceded the nomex jackets. This is a typical Army MA-1

Partially correct on the jackets. I served in USAF (early 1980s) - then US Army (mid-80s to early 90s) - and then ANG (mid 90s - 00s). I'm pretty familiar with the items issued although wasn't sure of the variations/designations until I started hanging around this site!

My USAF jackets were CWU-36 and CWU-45. Got the OG-106 green Army versions of the same jackets. My lightweight Army jacket has black velcro patch for the nametag. My winter jacket did not so has the nametapes and US Army on it. Some guys had the ALSE shop sew on the velcro. For whatever reason, I didn't. Along the same lines, we also had lightweight flight jackets with sewn-on name/US Army tapes. The latter seems to be common with guys who were in a few years earlier than me.

So I would contend that presence of absence of velcro for the nametag doesn't really mean all that much. In general terms, it would be more common to see velcro on both jackets but it wasn't an absolute.

The winter jacket merely has an opening to access the tanker extraction strap/harness. It's not actually a part of the jacket. Both the winter flight and tanker winter jacket (I don't think the tankers ever received the lightweight version) have the opening (exception to the very earliest versions which were marked as Jacket, Flyers, Cold Weather. Later versions share the exact same nomenclature -- Jacket High Temperature Resistant.

I'm not suggesting the Army jacket with AF badging couldn't happen. Just seems odd that there are suddenly a bunch of them up for sale.

Interesting observations and examples. My comments on the distinction in insignia placement between aviators and armor crewmen were based on a review of AR 670-1 (initially I looked at an '80s edition, but the 3 February 2005 version is the same) as well as my personal exposure to aviators at Fort Carson during my stint as an armor crewman ('88-'90), but clearly individual unit policy can differ. You do mention that the use of tapes on aviator's jackets was apparently more common before your time, and mine as well. I agree that this practice appears to be a carryover from the nylon days, but in any event the jacket with the unit patch over the right breast is something of an oddball.

To my knowledge tankers are not issued the lightweight jacket. Regarding the winter jacket, I've always understood that the Velcro opening was indeed the means of extracting a casualty. I've never seen a separate harness as you describe, and the presence of the opening on the CVC coverall as well as the jacket begs the question of how and where such a harness would be worn. Would a rescuer have to wade through several layers of Velcro-sealed garments to access the strap in cold weather? Moreover, AR 670-1 describes the cold-weather jacket as having a "yoke-and-retrieval strap opening with a hook-and-pile closure" with no mention of a harness being part of the CVC ensemble. Check this out:

http://www.nsnlocator.com/nsnlocator/fsc-8415/361.html

It's possible that the white reinforcing tape in the opening of the CVC coverall was intended to be the retrieval strap, but it doesn't seem any more substantial than the reinforced opening of the jacket.

As far as the AF-badged jackets are concerned, we've heard an explanation from an Air Force vet and LJMilitaria has several on hand--knowing his prices, probably for years. As you've pointed out, deviations from the norm are sometimes encountered and this may well be such a case.

 

[FtrPlt]

Could very well be the case insofar as USAF-worn Army nomex goes. I'd just never seen/heard of it before over 20+ years of military flying. Plus seeing 4-5 for sale over the past two-three months; combined with dozens of unbadged examples being for sale for cheap money struck me as a bit coincidental.

During Desert Storm, I think the mud-hens (we called them Beagles (bomb-eagles) back then) were based down at Al Kharj, south of Riyadh. This was a huge, permanent RSAF base. I would presume it was also a major logistical hub.

The Army jacket with the patch on the right breast is something I'd heard of before. Apparently a practice in the 1970s. It's not a matter of a patch being worn there. I was assigned to the same 6th Cavalry Brigade from 1986-88 and we wore that patch on our left arm. Our squadron patch was worn on the right breast.

Regarding the tanker harness, I have no clue. I wasn't a tanker and my world didn't overlap with theirs all that much. I did find these images online which would suggest the harness was integral to the coverall:

 

[watchmanjimg]

Yes, that's the harness all right. I got out before my unit transitioned to the M1 so I was never issued these items and didn't see the coveralls until years later. It seems so flimsy for its intended purpose, hence my earlier comments. In an emergency who's going to bother opening the jacket and coverall just to reach that thing? :lol:

 

[FtrPlt]

I agree. If the crewman was slumped forward, it would be easier to just reach into the coverall and grab the harness. Unless the proper form was to thread the harness out the back opening of the jacket :lol:

Back to the USAF badged Army nomex. I think technically we've not heard from any USAF vet about green US Army nomex being used. We've heard of a shortage of desert tan CWU jackets with Army tan nomex being used as a stop-gap vis-a-vis Afghanistan/Iraq II.

Using the 336th as an example: being based at a large, permanent base (Prince Sultan AB) which almost assuredly a large logistical hub, I would theorize that it's far more likely a trade for a green nomex was made rather than some acute shortage of USAF flight gear. The badging appears to be machine-sewn/professionally attached -- hardly something to be accomplished away from civilization. Where did the blue-on-OD name tape come from? USAF was in woodland BDUs by this point, I think. Not sure the wear-out date of the old green fatigues.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Back to the USAF badged Army nomex. I think technically we've not heard from any USAF vet about green US Army nomex being used. We've heard of a shortage of desert tan CWU jackets with Army tan nomex being used as a stop-gap vis-a-vis Afghanistan/Iraq II.

Using the 336th as an example: being based at a large, permanent base (Prince Sultan AB) which almost assuredly a large logistical hub, I would theorize that it's far more likely a trade for a green nomex was made rather than some acute shortage of USAF flight gear. The badging appears to be machine-sewn/professionally attached -- hardly something to be accomplished away from civilization. Where did the blue-on-OD name tape come from? USAF was in woodland BDUs by this point, I think. Not sure the wear-out date of the old green fatigues.

You're right--I'd forgotten that the other post referred specifically to the desert version. Looking more closely at LJ's jackets, the blue-on-OG nametape doesn't raise any red flags for me as I believe that was standard for the USAF throughout the service life of the BDU. Here are various examples:

http://oefoif.forumotion.net/t4070-bdu-collection

However, I note that the insignia appear to be sewn directly to the garment as opposed to the common Velcro arrangement. Is it safe to say that by Desert Storm the Velcro had long since been specified?

Admittedly my sole basis for thinking these jackets were used by the USAF at some level was the pictures on the LJ website. Now I don't know what to think.

On another note, while I was poking around on another website I found one of your posts regarding these jackets. Among the attached pics I saw that you posted a couple of mine, which you were more than welcome to do. I simply found it amusing. :lol:

 

[FtrPlt]

Shows how much my mind is slipping as I age!! I remember the green fatigues from the first time I was in the AF. The early Woodland BDU's used by USAF had a black leather nametag similar to a flight suit. I forgot they went back to the embroidered tapes.

Flight gear badging: For my entire time with USAF, badging has always been held on by velcro. The only exceptions I can think of would be around 1980/81 when there might have been a few senior flight commanders still wearing a few sewn-on patches. Even rank was on with velcro although this reverted back to sewn-on at some point since it was required info to be provided, if captured.

The Army was somewhat the opposite. Except for the leather nameplate, all the badgin was sewn onto flight suits and jackets.

By Desert Storm/Shield, it had already been long established that USAF patches would be velcro.

So, we're back to an Army nomex with sewn-on USAF badging for a timeframe which generally saw all USAF badging on with hook-and-loop.

I'm trying to remember where else I would be talking about flight jackets? Usually it's just here. US militaria forum?

 

[Monsoon]

OD Army nomex being used by AF dudes? Maybe some TACP ALOs, but most of those guys either wore BDUs (back in the day) or flight suits. And when wearing bags, I think they all were sporting standard AF jackets.

What about some sort of morale jacket?

 

[FtrPlt]

OD Army nomex being used by AF dudes? Maybe some TACP ALOs, but most of those guys either wore BDUs (back in the day) or flight suits. And when wearing bags, I think they all were sporting standard AF jackets.

What about some sort of morale jacket?

Not sure. If it was just one, I'd say probably yes. Looking at the LJ site, I see at least 3-4 plus I've seen a few on eBay over the past few months. All with machine-sewn badging and all different units (not all Desert Storm related).

 

[watchmanjimg]

Back to the USAF badged Army nomex. I think technically we've not heard from any USAF vet about green US Army nomex being used. We've heard of a shortage of desert tan CWU jackets with Army tan nomex being used as a stop-gap vis-a-vis Afghanistan/Iraq II.

An interesting postscript: Yesterday I acquired a green cold-weather Nomex jacket from an Air National Guard loadmaster who is deploying to South America this week after several Middle East deployments. His explanation for the jacket was that they're issued when there is a shortage of desert tan CWUs.

 

[Steve H]

Great thread- I'm learning a lot....

 

[Phantomfixer]

Back to the USAF badged Army nomex. I think technically we've not heard from any USAF vet about green US Army nomex being used. We've heard of a shortage of desert tan CWU jackets with Army tan nomex being used as a stop-gap vis-a-vis Afghanistan/Iraq II.

An interesting postscript: Yesterday I acquired a green cold-weather Nomex jacket from an Air National Guard loadmaster who is deploying to South America this week after several Middle East deployments. His explanation for the jacket was that they're issued when there is a shortage of desert tan CWUs.

So he was issued a green winter nomex Army jacket because there was a shortage of desert jackets? Am I missing something?

There is a Sz lg tanker at the local Army Navy for 35 bucks...might have try one out....

From my AF experiance, I have not witnessed USAF guys wearing Army flight jackets, not saying it did not happen, I have not witnessed the event, I spent 22 years on AF flightlines. I think it is possible....maybe these guys were assigned to Army units at times and wore them?