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The sizing issue myth

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Anonymous

Guest
I have read here many times that one should not trust the size label and must go with the measurements.
Indeed some makers have messed up the sizes so much that every meaning of size has been lost.

I making this post because I want to make some things clear.

There is no such thing that because men where shorter and smaller in wwii the jackets the jackets fit different than they should.
If your chest measures 40 and you try on a wwii size 40, it should fit, period. Thank God they haven't changed the inches since wwii.

At BK had some experiences where customers appear totally confused with sizes and altough their chest measures X they order size Y. Then they come back complaining about the fit. Same applies with the sleeve length. 90% of the customers won't have the regular sleeve length. They want to change it. And many times they end up with longer/shorter sleeves.

I want to say, after examining many original A-2s in various sizes from various WWII makers that the WWII A-2 patterns are brilliant. They are meant to give the correct fit, the way a uniform should fit, i.e. not baggy, AND THE ONLY WAY TO GET THAT IS TO ORDER THE NUMBER YOU SEE ON THE MEASURING TAPE WHEN YOU MEASURE YOUR CHEST.

Some folks also seem bothered with the shoulders span of the jackets. They find it hard to understand how they will get into a jacket with 17 inches shoulders when their civi jacket which they think fits them like a glove has shoulders measurements of 20 inches.
I don't have a documented answer for that (although, I am trying to find some evidence of how the shoulders length is calculated basis the chest measurement). What I can say now is this: The US military in WWII were not stupid to make jackets that wouldn't fit their men. Sizes are determined according to chest. So if chest fits so should the shoulders.

Some people come asking for the epaulet length. They apparently worry that they will get droopy shoulders. THERE ARE NO WWII A-2 JACKETS WITH DROOPY SHOULDERS. NONE FROM THOSE WE HAVE SEEN HAD THEM. This is another proof that the WWII patterns were CORRECT.

I have noticed that some makers ask the customer what epaulet length they want in the process of ordering the jacket. That can only make me thing that the outcome is a custom jacket that has little to do with what the original was.

At BK we have not done anything to "improve" the patterns. No little tweeks, no corrections, no adjustments, no nothing. WHAT YOU GET IS RAW WWII JACKET.

We notice that some patterns have longer sleeves than others, but we have chosen to leave them alone as they are rather than making them all uniform.

The only adjustment I could recommend, IF NECESSARY, when ordering a jacket is the sleeve length. IMHO everything else should be left untouched.

In short, the US Military guarantees your good fit, so when ordering a BK you don't need to think about sizing issues. Issues that were created by other makers who messed up the sizes, e.g. tagged 46 but fits as 42. You won't find this with BK.

Sure, as all patterns are different some will fit you better than others. THE GOLDEN RULE is that if you order your chest measurement you will get a good fit. Now, if you want the BEST POSSIBLE fit, my advice is look at the measurements of the jackets from all available wwii makers for the same size. Somewhere in there you will find the best fit for you.

The purpose of writing this is to help you guys avoiding getting the wrong size/fit and get disappointed afterwards (and then blame the maker for it).

I think I covered most of the issue, but not sure if I forgot something. I will be happy to answer any questions you might have to the best of my knowledge from the experience I got from studying various WWII originals.

One more piece of advice. NEVER take/use the measurements for a size that you see written on forums. Most of the times, they are wrong. ALWAYS ask the maker. It doesn't cost you anything to send an email enquiring. The maker, any maker, will be happy to answer.

Merry Christmas!
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
One more thing (myth) that has to be busted.

Some people think the A-2 is not a good design because it does not taper towards the waist the same way some civi jackets do, and because of that it gives the wearer a balloon stomach.

Wrong.
After having tried every size from every wwii maker that BK reproduces, I can tell you with absolute confidence that if you wear the correct size you get correct fit and flat stomach, no balloons.

So if your A-2 has balloon stomach, you should consider disposing it and getting size.

Now if you think that the jackets marked with your size won't fit you in the shoulders or something like that, then you should not conclude that the jacket pattern is wrong. On the contrary, something is not right with your body.

I understand the military must have made these patterns after examining statistics of body sizes. So, if the jackets fits 1000 persons but not you, then don't blame the jacket.

Modern manufacturers have solved this problem by making fuller patterns that will fit everyone, no matter the body type. But the drawback was that the correct fit was lost for good.
 

Robman

Member
Platon, I do agree generally with you but there are two things to consider.

#1 People are larger today and I'm not talking about fatter. The shoulder span and wrist measurements are bigger. In other words a person with a 44 chest in WW2 and a person of today with a 44 inch chest won't necessarily equate. The skeletal mass/frame today will most likely be larger. This will certainly have an effect on the fit and comfort. A modern "athletic" person of today would have a hard time wearing a vintage jacket in his tagged size.

Take a look at Andrew who has stayed in excellent condition by the way. I believe he once said his chest measures 38 or so yet his originals which look authentic on him might I add are usually 44s.

#2 As to the fits, I have seen many groupings of originals where the drees tunic is a size 38 but the A2 is a 40 or 42. I don't see a lot of photographic evidence showing ultra trimly worn A2s. Most have slack.

Just my 2 cents.

By the way you make some beautiful looking jackets.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Thank you for your comments.
Andrew has said that his chest measures 40 but he has wide shoulders that's why he is more comfortable with 44.

The problem we have is that some originals are tag e.g. 42 but over the years have shrunk at least one size.
When these are used to make patterns, there will be problems.
Also, there are many A-2s of the same size, from the same maker that measure differently.
These are the limitations unfortunately.
When we made our patterns at BK, had to go with the jackets in hand. Can't say if they were the same size as when made, neither had the luxury to handle hudreds of the same contract so to figure out averages. But generally, we are satisfied with the fit. I personally try on every prototype jacket and so far have not been disappointed.

About what you said, I think a person with 44 chest in WW2 of the same height and built with a person with 44 chest today are very much the same.

The modern athletic person today is probably body building so may have more muscular mass. As such he would be uncomfortable in an A-2. But a person who is running as opposed to lifting weights, should be pretty much the same athletic with an athletic person in WWII.

I believe that bodies have not changed much. I believe that the statistics changed, I mean the distribution of the population.
In other words, I guess that in WWII most people wore 36 up to 40 rather than bigger sizes whereas nowadays it's the opposite and most people wear 42 to 46. In that sense the bodies have changed.

Regarding shoulders to chest ratio, we must check with some anthropologist.
 

Roughwear

Well-Known Member
I agree with Robman here. I have a 38-40 chest size and wear a size 42 in a modern suit jacket. Size 38 and 40 originals from a range of contracts are too small for me. I have wide shoulders, a long upper body and long arms so a size 42 is usually a trim fit and a 44 or 46 is a more comfortable fit. There was considerable variation in the fit of wartime A2s irrespective of the tagged size. A size 44 Monarch is nearer a typical size 40 or a small 42 from other contracts. I have two GW jackets from 2011 and 2012 and although they are tagged 46 they fit like a typical Wartime 44. Much depends on one's body shape. I always go by the actual measurements rather than the tagged size.
 

Robman

Member
Platon, let me say that I workout cross fit style and have an original 27753 (generous cut) that was in my suit size......I can put it on and although fine in the middle I could never have worn it as an issued garment. Matter of fact I might have need two sizes larger to accomodate the shoulder span which would have left me with a potato sack!
 

unclegrumpy

Well-Known Member
PLATON said:
I want to say, after examining many original A-2s in various sizes from various WWII makers that the WWII A-2 patterns are brilliant.

What I can say now is this: The US military in WWII were not stupid to make jackets that wouldn't fit their men. In short, the US Military guarantees your good fit.
While the various WW II A-2 patterns may have been "brilliant", what happened to them in the manufacturing process may not have been. The adherence to pattern was not absolute, and there were often shortcuts and substitutions made....some to better the product, some because of wartime shortages, some to get back at the Government for squeezing the price down too much, and some because the owners of the companies were greedy profiteers.

In my observations over the years, the larger the jackets get....I would say progressively size 44 and over....the weirder some examples become. I have owned several jackets where the pocket size and neck size labels do not match, and several others where the sleeves were overly short. This may have been due to a lack of attention to detail or product control in the factory, but it more likely was an attempt to use up the available parts on hand to complete a contract.

As far as statement that the "US Military guarantees your good fit", all I can say is several hundred years of American soldiers would probably find issue with that.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Andrew, it would be interesting to see a photo of you with only a t-shirt on.

My chest is 40 and I wear 38 and 40 suit. I don't wear them slim fit like Italian style. I believe I wear them classic style.
All WWII size 40 jackets I tried fit me perfect, except Aero which is roomier in the chest and hence I prefer it in a 38.

Not to say that the A-2 is not somewhat restrictive.
The 40 fits like glove, but movement is a little restricted especially because the A-2 does not have gussets like the Navy jackets.
I have tried on 42, 44 and movement was a lot easier, but fit and appearance was destroyed as those were very baggy on me.

So I guess, with the A-2 pattern you can't have both looks and comfort. You can have one at the expense of the other and I prefer looks. I haven't worn any A-2 long enough to break in or to mold in my body. I guess it would be more comfortable then.

Andrew, I think the A-2 on your avatar has a degree of bagginess.

Robman, agree that many airmen wore tunic 38 and A-2 42 but let's not forget the factor of personal preference in fit and also that many people want to layer under their A-2, while others not.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
As far as statement that the "US Military guarantees your good fit", all I can say is several hundred years of American soldiers would probably find issue with that.

I have heard what people say that in the army there are two sizes, too small and too big, but let's not forget that these jackets were made in regular sizes only considering that most people would be regular. All the others would have problems of course.

Today you have M-65 jackets made in short, reg and long etc, but I guess they still have trouble getting the right size because it's also up to the individual's selection of right size.

Of course, it would be great if one could go in to a store and wear the jackets to find the right size, or better say the size he likes.
(because he might not necessarily like the "right" size).
Regarding online buying from A-2 repro makers, I 'd say, if you wear regular size do not have any fears. The jackets should fit.

Andrew, what are the measurements of the jacket that fits you best?
 

unclegrumpy

Well-Known Member
PLATON said:
I have heard what people say that in the army there are two sizes, too small and too big, but let's not forget that these jackets were made in regular sizes only considering that most people would be regular. All the others would have problems of course.

Yes that's true. One other aspect of fit you are not fully considering, is in WW II items like A-2's that were issued were handed out by Supply Sergeants, and they determined the fit....and the soldier got what he got if it fit or not.

Now more to the point, not to be overly harsh here, but you are mixing too many topics up. Instead of this thread being called "The sizing issue myth", it really should be called:

"BK's Marketing Problem... Size Does Matter"

Here are a couple of points....

1) While I am in the camp that WW II authenticity is extremely important, it must be tempered with two things....you are selling a premium product and the customer is always right.

2) That said, it is your responsibility to as a businessman to find a way to keep both your high standards and keep your customers happy.

Lets look broadly at how your two largest competitors work the sizing issue:

1) Eastman: You have essentially two ways to buy an Eastman. A: Go to an Air Show in England, and try on every jacket in the tent, and select something you like off the rack. B: Email Gary with the maker you want, and he selects the size for you.

2) Goodwear: John uses the other extreme. Each jacket is made to order. He spends a lot of up front time working with each customer to insure that he gets their correct measurements, and develops a feeling of what the customer believes a good fit would be. He also is not bashful about taking that information and using it to direct someone to a very narrow contract choice.....one that would be the best for their body type.

Conclusion:

Even with Eastman's and Goodwear's many years of experience and attention to detail, both I am sure still have exactly the same customer fit problems you have....though I suspect fewer of them.
 

ButteMT61

Well-Known Member
I think it's no surprise that people have survived with off the rack jackets for many years. I've noticed that people doing custom orders tend to over think (I did this too at first) and even try to outsmart makers with exaggerated numbers.
I am almost paranoid with my long arms. Off the rack rarely, but occasionally does work.
Aero have decided to cut way back on "customizations". Smart move. Over the years people have become a nightmare with changes to the original designs.
Two of my favorite jackets were bought second-hand, not custom.

Biggest problem IMHO. People don't look in the mirror enough. You can't take a potato body and expect any jacket - even a $1500 item - to change that. Day after day, people think they can overcome a sorry physique with a nice custom jacket. Difference is that in WWII, many people worked physically hard and had much less to eat. Men were generally in better shape. A wiry or buff man will always look better in a nice jacket. Period.
 

ButteMT61

Well-Known Member
Roughwear said:
There was no "perfect" wartime fit. Just look at these newish A2s. You can see a whole range of fits and many blouse around the stomach.

http://www.goodwearleather.com/photos/Proper_A2_Fit.jpg

Right, but nobody is going to layout $800-$1200 to look like that - that's the challenge of the makers. And that's what I've asked before about "authenticity". A truly authentic WWII jakcet would be sized and sold, no customs, right?
 

Marv

Well-Known Member
I have owned several ELC A2s, an Aero A2 and a BK M422a and all have been a 46" reg and fitted great so I have never had to order a size bigger or smaller unless I have either lost or put on,weight.
 

unclegrumpy

Well-Known Member
ButteMT61 said:
Biggest problem IMHO. People don't look in the mirror enough. You can't take a potato body and expect any jacket - even a $1500 item - to change that. Day after day, people think they can overcome a sorry physique with a nice custom jacket. Difference is that in WWII, many people worked physically hard and had much less to eat. Men were generally in better shape. A wiry or buff man will always look better in a nice jacket. Period.
There you go, blame the problem of fit on the old guys and fat dudes! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
It's not a BK problem. BK has customers that got a regular size jacket and were absolutely happy with it and has also made custom jackets for those who wanted them.

I am just trying to help and make our lives easier, both the customer's and the maker's.

When I gave my stats to ELC he recommended that I buy a size 42 jacket and refused to give me the measurements. When I gave the measurements I wanted for the jacket, (taken from regular 40 original) refused to cooperate and give me the jacket that was closer to those measurements. I knew that if I 'd taken the 42 it would be blousy in the stomach.

I don't want to think that I am an exception getting good fit from all the originals in my size that I tried on, that's why I am saying that I think that regular sized folks should have no problem with regular size jackets.
 

ButteMT61

Well-Known Member
unclegrumpy said:
ButteMT61 said:
Biggest problem IMHO. People don't look in the mirror enough. You can't take a potato body and expect any jacket - even a $1500 item - to change that. Day after day, people think they can overcome a sorry physique with a nice custom jacket. Difference is that in WWII, many people worked physically hard and had much less to eat. Men were generally in better shape. A wiry or buff man will always look better in a nice jacket. Period.
There you go, blame the problem of fit on the old guys and fat dudes! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well... I've been there. The truth smacks your wallet and ego. Great motivators ;)
 
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