Please, can identify this jacket???

Discussion in 'General Flight Jacket Discussion' started by Linx, Nov 24, 2016.

  1. Linx

    Linx New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Hi,

    I took in Italy this jacket that was given to me by saying that it had been used in World War II, no civilian.
    It's widely used, worn, marked by time and some changes were made. The buckles have been removed, remain the signs of the seams. Perhaps even perform other changes. The labels have been removed, it remains only a small label on the side near the pocket with the number 44 in red. Someone added a patch under the armpit. The zip is a double Eclair in metal, I don't know if it is original or replaced after. It has many little holes, loses fur. The material of pocket is '40s.

    I am not sure can be hinges are removed from the sleeves because there are seams and missing a lot of hair.

    It seems that in the past they wanted to hide the military origin, buckles and removing labels and make it more fashionable. The pockets don't know whether original or added later, but I think original.

    It seems like English line but as the American fabric, No idea of nationality or army.

    Certainly it is in line with production 40s, maybe it was civil, but very strange.
    I was told that not all irvin models are documented and there are many variations, and many customized, someone said it might be a irvin type.. fighter... Raf mid-season... other USA....ground crew or rare B6 variant ( fighter pilots preferred a less-bulky jacket in their cramped cockpits and now are extremely scarce and unobtainable).

    It's made of several small pieces as they used to at the end of forty years when the skin was more difficult to find, the leather strips that cover the seams are not a long one piece, as in the replies, but as they used to in the past, especially with those military and handmade.

    Are you able to identify?Do you know what that is?

    Thank you

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  2. Roughwear

    Roughwear Well-Known Member

    Welcome to the forum. Your jacket is interesting. It is not an Irvin variant and has no obvious connection with the RAF. It looks like a USAAF D-1 style jacket as worn by ground crew. This one does not appear to be a D-1 from one of the contracts awarded by the Materiel Division. The pockets are horizontal rather than angled on most issued jackets with pockets (not all D-1s had pockets). There were many variants of this jacket and some appear to have been made by riggers on air bases. The zip is a later replacement as the original zip would have extended to the hem. It would have had a single collar strap.
     
  3. Peter Graham

    Peter Graham Well-Known Member

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    Interesting jacket indeed. It has the look of a USAAF theatre made jacket as it's never had a makers label sewn into the inner neck. If it had the stitch holes would show.
     
  4. Linx

    Linx New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Thanks!
    Yes, the hinge appears to have been added after, also about the collar strap the signs (seams) indicate that he was single.
    [​IMG]

    Unfortunately I can't see the label signs
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  5. Peter Graham

    Peter Graham Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,146
    Location:
    Ireland
    If there had been a label there would be a rectangle of stitch holes visible on the outside below the collar.
     
    Roughwear likes this.
  6. joeson

    joeson Member

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    274
    Location:
    London,UK
    Look like a generic civilian copy of a flight jacket that were pretty common and sold mail order in the U.K. in the 1970's/80's.
     
  7. Roughwear

    Roughwear Well-Known Member

    The wear to the leather especially round the pockets suggests a 1940s jacket not a 1970s/80s civi jacket. IMO its a rigger-made or private purchase D-1, with a replaced later zip.
     
  8. Linx

    Linx New Member

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    13
    I own other tissues of the 40s, confronted with the inner tissue of the pockets, it seems the same one used at that time.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016
  9. Roughwear

    Roughwear Well-Known Member

    Yes the pocket linings are typical Wartime ones as seen on the D-1 and B-6 jackets.
     
    Peter Graham likes this.
  10. joeson

    joeson Member

    Messages:
    274
    Location:
    London,UK
    The size label is typical of ones found on 1970's motorcycle jackets.Yes,the pockets have wear but I have had jackets from the 1990's that have been destroyed by wear.The denim pocket bags are pretty typical of jackets from the 1970's too.
     
  11. Linx

    Linx New Member

    Messages:
    13
    I saw other jackets 40s with the little size number labels similar, even the same color and font comparable. The seams and the material seems much older than 70. I repeat, I have other tissue 40s and has the same plot of pocket material.
     
  12. Peter Graham

    Peter Graham Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,146
    Location:
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    Got to agree with Joeson re the label. That's something I thought was odd, that it would have a size label if theatre made.
     
  13. Linx

    Linx New Member

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    13
    The first that I found...only for example, original labels :

    (Sometimes, I have also seen the size label sewn on the brand label)

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    I saw the jackets that you say of '70-'80s but they are different and don't have any horizontal but vertical pockets.

    I assure you if you see this jacket live you realize that is earlier to 80-70.

    This other example, seam in original USAAF D1:
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    This in my jacket, similar to the previous... the seams are not regular, no perfect ...
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    I dont want to say this to be used in ww2 in any case, it can be civil but I think in that era. I would like to solve the mystery identification with evidence without assumptions.
     
  14. joeson

    joeson Member

    Messages:
    274
    Location:
    London,UK
    I hear what you are saying but the size label numbers are in a different font.Pre 1960's tended to be quite stylized with cursive or flared ends whereas later ones are more regular,just straight line.Also,I have had lots of post 1970's items with the identical label featuring the red cutters mark underneath.Of course,this is not an exact science but I have seen examples of all these styles on various items of clothing over the last 25 years and they generally fall into the dates i have stated above.
    I think if you scroll down on this link you can see the same type of size label on this 1970's biker jacket:
    http://uk-extra.com/2640lj.htm
     
  15. Linx

    Linx New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Maybe in picture don't see well, the label (and the leather, the seams...) but it is completely different, label it's in tessue, frayed, the font is different, I've seen too original '40s of "military" recognized brands much more similar (see photos I posted in the previous post), but also modern.
    Between the two it is much more similar to the older ones.
    You don't think that I don't have compared with other jackets, I have already done.
    View photo label with a more modern similar jacket from Slovenia.
    They look label the same, but in reality are completely different.
    The leather, seams, tessue pockets are much older.
    If I have the time I show the tissue 40 decade identical a pocket.
    Also further doubt the strips of skin that cover the seams are not made with one piece as modern replicas but in several sections as they did at that age.

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  16. Linx

    Linx New Member

    Messages:
    13
    The modern label is from this replica from Slovenia.
    I purchased for 10 euro !!!!!!!
    Genuine leather, very well done, I think a failed factory

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  17. joeson

    joeson Member

    Messages:
    274
    Location:
    London,UK
    Maybe in picture don't see well, the label (and the leather, the seams...) but it is completely different, label it's in tessue, frayed, the font is different, I've seen too original '40s of "military" recognized brands much more similar (see photos I posted in the previous post), but also modern.
    Between the two it is much more similar to the older ones.
    You don't think that I don't have compared with other jackets, I have already done.
    View photo label with a more modern similar jacket from Slovenia.
    They look label the same, but in reality are completely different.
    The leather, seams, tessue pockets are much older.
    If I have the time I show the tissue 40 decade identical a pocket.
    Also further doubt the strips of skin that cover the seams are not made with one piece as modern replicas but in several sections as they did at that age.

    Yes,the modern label is different,.The label in the jacket in question is more like a label from the 1970's.To me,they are not similar at all.The labels in the previous photographs(1940's Irvin and G&F M422-a) are earlier and differ greatly in style and font.
    I am interested to see the pictures of the 1940's pocket bags although I am not sure where that is going to lead us.Cotton pocket bags were common in 1970's motorcycle jackets.
    I have never heard your theory on the seam tapes but I am always interested to learn.Having said that,personally this is not a jacket I would have purchased as,for me,it is a generic sheepskin flying jacket from the 1970's.If anyone has a strong belief that it is not,let's hear your reasons,we are all here to learn.
     
  18. Peter Graham

    Peter Graham Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,146
    Location:
    Ireland
    This is a great discussion. Reminds me of the VLJ of old. To me the jacket looks WW2 AAF. The colour the finish, the wear, the seam tape, the pockets, but there's something doesn't look quite right. Joeson, you've mentioned generic 70's flying jackets a few times. I know that you know your stuff but do you have any photos ? I suspect that you might be right.
     
  19. dmar836

    dmar836 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Kansas, USA
    If something falls too far from what we know to be the standard it must be suspected. The cut and assembly are quite a bit different than my original D-1s - enough so that this isn't one. The under arm assembly is reminiscent of an Irvins but for more reasons than the American hide it clearly isn't one. The back is cut like a B-3 but it clearly isn't one. The pockets are nothing too unusual. The multiple pieces of leather, while not uncommon in issue jackets, is more what they do/did in the civi world as full hides are very expensive. Sure, today, we expect a $1600 repro to be perfect and have all the best leather, cuts, etc. Back in the 60s-80s not so much. It is no doubt not a contract piece but why would it have a size label? IMO, studying counterfeits is no way to learn of originality. It only shows you all the incorrect things and inconsistencies and no matter how good they are still not originals. In fact it can get you so used to seeing the discrepancies that you begin to accept many as normal variances in originals. All this adds up to what looks like a repro, civi, or "designer" jacket to me. As I stated, if it falls too far from the norm, the assumption has to be it is a one-off or a later repro. The size tag puts in doubt the first assumption and so without provenance the burden of proof is on proving it is real. It could be a period, wartime jacket but I would need more than hopeful thinking to convince me. Please prove me wrong and no offense but please don't ask us to prove it isn't an original. We need better proof that it is. That hide is certainly in great shape!
    JMO,
    Dave
     
  20. dmar836

    dmar836 Well-Known Member

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    That sounded more crass than it sounded inside.
     

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