Inset vs. simple sleeves on A-2s

[hillcpa]

Quick intro: Long-time lurker and occasional poster on this and earlier boards. I have owned several of the high-end repros (Aero, Eastman, and, yes, LW) so I'm fairly educated on the subject. Most of said education has come from the members of this forum, and I am most appreciative.

For the life of me, I cannot grasp the difference between an inset sleeve (Star, Doniger) and a simple sleeve construction. I understand the rotated part, but not the "inset" part. I have studied and compared pictures and I can't see any significant difference.

I would be most appreciative if some kind soul could explain the difference, preferably with photos comparing and contrasting the two different styles. Please don't be afraid to "dumb it down"--I think that is what I need.

Thanks!

 

[DiamondDave]

Dumbed down...

Inset sleeve is made, when a "vest" is made, and then the sleeve is "inset" into said vest. This is more difficult in some ways (ie Top stitching around the arm-hole), and simpler in others. It also requires that the seamer, "works in a hole" when attaching the sleeve.

Conversely, a simple sleeve is attached with the body of the jacket only sewn together at the shoulder (side seam stil open), as well as the sleeve open on the underside, or "thumb seam". Then sleeve is attached "flat" as it were.... this allows for much simpler top-stitching of the sleeve hole prior to closing the jacket. The inset sleeve is normally a much more comfortable sleeve, as the "rolled" sleeve that you mentioned in your posting actually mimics the body shape of most people. This latter does cause some of its own challenges as well. This includes a large "bunching" at the side seam, due to the fact that the layers of ALL of the pieces meet in this area and can be difficult, at best.

You can easily see the difference in these, if the "thumb seam" and the side seam, meet up under the arm. It is a simple sleeve and the "inset" is obvious if these do not meet up and the "thumb seam" is clearly forward of the side seam.

Certain companies did this, more difficult inset, although it was not required by the Government at the time. It was however how most of them had always done it pre-war. and it is IMHO a more elegantly styled garment.

Hope this helps clear it up.

DD

 

[Swing]

Certain companies did this, more difficult inset, although it was not required by the Government at the time. It was however how most of them had always done it pre-war. and it is IMHO a more elegantly styled garment.

Just wanted to add that just about every other USAAF/USAF leather, cotton, or nylon flight jacket had this type of sleeve standard. Don't know why all A-2s were made that way, but the one's I have with that style sleeve are much more comfortable.

~Swing

 

[better duck]

Guys, this is an interesting topic, and Dave provides, as far as I am concerned in part an answer to this question. Kind soul as you are, and elaborate as your answer is though, I still don't get what the differences in the way of construction make for an "richer and more satisfying wearing experience" to put in modern lingo . I have an ELC Star, so I can see the different construction, just as you mention it, and indeed the jacket feels very comfortable, but that may also come from it being quite large and roomy on my frame. What I don't get is how a different placement of the seems makes a difference in the look and comfort of the jacket when worn.
Dave, could you (or anybody) elaborate, maybe even with pics? A good picture often says more than a thousand words ...

 

[Anonymous]

Yes yes pics please

 

[hillcpa]

Thanks, Dave. I understand much better after your explanation. I'm still not totally there, though. Like Better Duck, I don't understand why the inset sleeve results in a roomier, more comfortable fit. Also, does the rotated sleeve seam result from the inset process, or is the sleeve rotated in addition to being inset?

I have gathered that shirt sleeves typically use the simple sleeve attachment and most coats and jackets use the inset process. I wonder why the "shirt" style became the default method for the A-2, which was clearly meant to be a jacket.

 

[deeb7]

I have gathered that shirt sleeves typically use the simple sleeve attachment and most coats and jackets use the inset process. I wonder why the "shirt" style became the default method for the A-2, which was clearly meant to be a jacket.

Although it's a jacket, in a way the A-2 is more of a leather shirt, the pattern is shirt like, and it fits like a shirt. If you compare it to a dress shirt, you can see the similarities ... it even has the collar stand in early versions.

 

[Jaguar46]

I am reviving this topic, since some of the questions about the 2 different types of jacket construction were not completely answered. I just recently acquired an ELC Star Sportswear, and indeed it is more comfortable than the ELC Roughwear 27752, even though the measurements of the 27752 are slightly larger, in the chest, and shoulders.

1. How does the inset sleeve translate into a more comfortable and elegant garment?