Horsehide quality between manufacturers

[cgreen]

Hi All,

It's about to pour down rain here in Toronto, hope you're all somewhere less dramatic. I've got a question about the quality of horsehide between some of the major brands - I'm certain I don't know them all - and I'm looking for the collective experience of the forum for help.

Is there a noticeable difference in feel, drape, and aesthetics between the horsehides? How does Aero stack up against Bill Kelso? How does Kelso stack up against Eastman? How does Good Wear stack up against Kelso? Thedi? Rainbow Country, RMC, etc?

A Good Wear A-2 runs approximately $1,500 USD, while an Aero will set you back just over half that depending on the conversion rate. An Eastman A-2 is approximately $1,500 but goes up from there, while a Kelso is approximately $1,100 USD.

What is creating the difference in price? At this level I'm assuming the quality must be the same, no? Surely Aero's $850 USD A-2 isn't half as good as a Good Wear, is it? Why are the price for some higher and for others a bit lower? Is it an economy of scale? Is Aero just a larger manufacturer and therefore able to source hides in a more economical way? Surely the craftsmen working for these various brands are equally skilled.

Looking for your thoughts, thank you very much. Take it easy out there today.

CG

 

[blackrat2]

Devil is in the detail…some go the extra mile and offer a range of NOS bits along with perfecting the nuisance of every contract and others make a generic pattern
I would imagine the market your aiming the product at is a big driving factor on what price you can charge

 

[Nickb123]

In my limited experience:

Good Wear: range of horsehides - Shinki, Italian, Horween

Eastman: Italian

Aero: Italian (Vicenza), and a range of different options. Haven’t tried their Jerky but I believe it’s chrome tanned with a finish that reveals undertone colors when worn in). While not the norm, you can find some images of original WWII Aero Beacon of NY A-2s seen with a finish with a bunch of undercoat color showing (may or may not just be the redye).

My subjective thoughts are that Italian is universally stiffer, tends to be either pebbly (GW, Aero) or luxurious in appearance (thin and luxurious-Eastman, but still needing a thorough break in due to its vegetable tanned nature).

Horween in A-2 weight leather (not Chromexcel FQHH) is soft, has nice drape. May not give you a feeling of wearing a substantial feeling jacket but it’s closer to others in how I’d perceive WWII leathers to be.

I think many companies get their leather from the Victoria tannery, Eastman may have a different source.

Shinki is also very “luxurious” looking, but that is dependent on the pigmentation - I know John offers a Shinki very mono color and muted in appearance. All seem to be a bit thick, also requiring some break in. Only one I have that squeaks is a GW 27752 in Shinki, a few years old now).

Actually I think a pigmented finish will yield you a pretty evenly-finished jacket regardless of leather origin.

My favorite? Fluctuates daily probably more into thinner leathers now. Takes some getting used to, but really, our beloved repros are several steps up in leather quality and boutique ness than anything from WWII I’ve seen. And most lack the drape that is commonly found in wartime photographs.

 

[Chandler]

Let's not forget to point out JC is a one-man-band -- creating his pieces on his own. Truly artisan.

 

[mulceber]

Regarding HH qualities, they are VERY different. All nice leathers though. John has commented to me that Horween is the closest to what vintage HH was like - which it should be, since Horween is the only HH tannery that was around back then. It's VERY pliable - which is a good thing, both from a break-in standpoint, and from an accuracy standpoint. When you look at pilots wearing their jackets, these were not stiff jackets, at least not normally.

I'd second Nick's assessment of Italian - very nice, tends to be stiffer (sometimes VERY stiff), and it can have a pebbly quality that I think is more typical of goatskin than vintage HH. Very nice stuff, but I suspect that the reason it's so ubiquitous (all A-2 manufacturers have included it in their offerings at one time or another, apart from the Japanese brands) is that it's located in the EU, where most of our makers are, it's very consistent in color (almost no difference from batch to batch), and their delivery times are very regular. You place an order from them, and it's done in 3 months, like clockwork (according to John).

Can't really comment on Shinki, since I've never handled it. I've heard it can be pretty stiff though?

 

[blackrat2]

You nailed it Chandler, leather aside and I figure they all pay roughy the same , it’s the craftsmanship and eye for detail that is the difference
I’ve had all three of Johns horsehide offerings and currently the Horween nails it
When I retire in a couple years I am planning on one of his goat offerings

 

[Grant]

Having ordered way too many reproduction jackets over the years, I've found it all depends on the batch of hides any one maker has in house when you order your repro jacket. Gary and John are always very accommodating in letting me know if they think they have what I'm looking for. And if not, I'm happy to wait. Both seem to be continually upping their game with ever improving hides and details so it's always tempting. Yeah, it's a sickness.

 

[cgreen]

You guys are amazing! Thanks very much for everyone's thoughts, I really appreciate that. I'd be interested to know how these various boutique manufacturers' jackets stack up against the quality of offerings from major fashion labels, a la, Ralph Lauren, Gucci, YSL, etc. I posed a similar question a while back but I'm interested if anyone has experience with both types of production - boutique maker and major label.

Thank you again, enjoy the rest of the day - looking forward to more thoughts. Take care.

CG

 

[ZuZu]

Hi All,

It's about to pour down rain here in Toronto, hope you're all somewhere less dramatic. I've got a question about the quality of horsehide between some of the major brands - I'm certain I don't know them all - and I'm looking for the collective experience of the forum for help.

Is there a noticeable difference in feel, drape, and aesthetics between the horsehides? How does Aero stack up against Bill Kelso? How does Kelso stack up against Eastman? How does Good Wear stack up against Kelso? Thedi? Rainbow Country, RMC, etc?

A Good Wear A-2 runs approximately $1,500 USD, while an Aero will set you back just over half that depending on the conversion rate. An Eastman A-2 is approximately $1,500 but goes up from there, while a Kelso is approximately $1,100 USD.

What is creating the difference in price? At this level I'm assuming the quality must be the same, no? Surely Aero's $850 USD A-2 isn't half as good as a Good Wear, is it? Why are the price for some higher and for others a bit lower? Is it an economy of scale? Is Aero just a larger manufacturer and therefore able to source hides in a more economical way? Surely the craftsmen working for these various brands are equally skilled.

Looking for your thoughts, thank you very much. Take it easy out there today.

CG

The difference in price sometimes reflects accuracy although IMO with Eastman you're getting an aesthetic version odf jackets whereas with Good Wear you're getting (IMO by far) the most accurate copy of a WW2 contract jacket. All of them are at the mercy of current leather manufacturers who don't use exactly the same processes as WW2 leather manufacturers. WW2 leather is just qualatively different- some stuff today comes close but as Grant and others have pointed out it depends often on the current batch they have.

 

[Grant]

Proud to say I have zero experience or interest in the fashion brands you mentioned. If that's your interest, you're in the wrong forum.

 

[cgreen]

Proud to say I have zero experience or interest in the fashion brands you mentioned. If that's your interest, you're in the wrong forum.

I don't think I ever mentioned that I had an interest in the fashion brands, and if I did that would be alright, too. I recognize where I am, and where the collective interest of the forum(s) generally lies.

Once again, my question was more to the point of the price disparity between the various boutique manufactures, and then between boutique manufacturers and the fashion brands.

If the wider public new about the quality of an Eastman, or an Aero, or an RMC, or any other boutique maker would they perhaps choose to make that purchase over spending similar or in some cases more money for a fashion label?

 

[mulceber]

Well as I understand it, companies like Real McCoy and to a lesser degree Buzz Rickson ARE boutique brands, at least in Japan, even if they’re also popular in more niche communities like ours. Eastman is developing a bit of that reputation as well, due to the extensive work they’ve done for the film industry. That’s part of what justifies the higher cost for those brands. They’re also all producing their jackets in countries with high costs of labor.

Good Wear? Because it’s a one-man operation. John has better patterns than anyone, but he only has two hands, so it’s simple supply and demand. If he didn’t charge what he does, his waitlist would be five years long. As it is, it’s one to two years.

Bill Kelso produces a comparable product to Eastman (maybe a bit better), but they don’t have the history with the film industry so they can’t justify charging Eastman prices, and they’re manufacturing in a country with a lower cost of living/cost of labor, so they can afford to charge less.

 

[ZuZu]

Well as I understand it, companies like Real McCoy and to a lesser degree Buzz Rickson ARE boutique brands, at least in Japan, even if they’re also popular in more niche communities like ours. Eastman is developing a bit of that reputation as well, due to the extensive work they’ve done for the film industry. That’s part of what justifies the higher cost for those brands. They’re also all producing their jackets in countries with high costs of labor.

Good Wear? Because it’s a one-man operation. John has better patterns than anyone, but he only has two hands, so it’s simple supply and demand. If he didn’t charge what he does, his waitlist would be five years long. As it is, it’s one to two years.

Bill Kelso produces a comparable product to Eastman (maybe a bit better), but they don’t have the history with the film industry so they can’t justify charg, and they’re manufacturing in a country with a lower cost of living/cost of labor, so they can afford to charge less.

Bill Kelso lives in one of the best countries IMO!

 

[mulceber]

Agreed, their work speaks for itself.