bseal
Well-Known Member
Looks good, but really liked the one John did for Robin...
http://www.goodwearleather.com/photos/A ... _GoodWear/
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elc hilts a-2
- Thread starter Silver Surfer
- Start date
Looks good, but really liked the one John did for Robin...
http://www.goodwearleather.com/photos/A ... _GoodWear/
stevetfire
Member
Cheers Andrew, I'm not surprisedRoughwear said:
2BM2K
Well-Known Member
Re-issue or not re-issue, that is the question.
Since the announcement by Eastman that they are going to release a copy of the Hilt's Jacket I have been
looking closely at images of the original, more so than I have done before. I have noticed a few things that
previously escaped me.
In studio photo's the jacket can be seen to be black in colour, that is a true black not dark seal brown.
Screen capture images have a yellow colour cast which gives the jacket a brown tinge.
The zipper tape also appears to have been carefully dyed to match the leather colour.
The AAF shoulder "decal" is also of interest. A close look at the wings reveals that they lack the detailing of
of an original AAF decal. This makes me think that the shoulder "decal" was painted on.
Original shoulder decal.
My conclusion from this is that the jacket was dyed and painted by the costume department after which they distressed it.
That is the jacket was never "re-issued, re-dyed".
Since the announcement by Eastman that they are going to release a copy of the Hilt's Jacket I have been
looking closely at images of the original, more so than I have done before. I have noticed a few things that
previously escaped me.
In studio photo's the jacket can be seen to be black in colour, that is a true black not dark seal brown.
Screen capture images have a yellow colour cast which gives the jacket a brown tinge.
The zipper tape also appears to have been carefully dyed to match the leather colour.
The AAF shoulder "decal" is also of interest. A close look at the wings reveals that they lack the detailing of
of an original AAF decal. This makes me think that the shoulder "decal" was painted on.
Original shoulder decal.
My conclusion from this is that the jacket was dyed and painted by the costume department after which they distressed it.
That is the jacket was never "re-issued, re-dyed".
This is certainly food for thought! It is possible that the shoulder decal was an original which was touched up by the costume department. Why would they re-paint an A2 jacket? The finish is quite dark, but I have seen depot jobs of a similar colour. The collar does look like that of a 27752 as the top stitching appears further from the collar edge, which was typical of this contract.
IMO there is no proof that the original Hilts A2 is a 16159 jacket. I believe it is a RW 27752 which was subjected to a depot re-paint later in the War or even post War for Korea. The collar looks like that found on a 27752 and the zip is a Talon with a bell puller, which was precisely the zip used on all jackets from this contract. Talon M39 zips were used on the 16159 contract, with the long bar puller. Of course the puller could have been changed, but these early Talon zip sliders were quite robust and I can see no reason why it should have been changed unless the zip failed in the War.
Here is an update with the assistance of JC. Mr. Okamoto of Toys McCoy bought the original. Here's a detail photo from the Perfect Book in October of 2007 that supposedly shows the original:
http://auction.thumbnail.image.rakuten. ... 123213.jpg
If it is the original jacket I would say this after enlarging the scans. It looks as if the zipper was replaced. The label does indeed look like one from the 23380 contract. It seems to have the same number of lines of text as this contract and is the same shape. The labels on the other contracts were more rectangular. Verdict: If this is the movie jacket then it was from the 23380 contract.
http://auction.thumbnail.image.rakuten. ... 123213.jpg
If it is the original jacket I would say this after enlarging the scans. It looks as if the zipper was replaced. The label does indeed look like one from the 23380 contract. It seems to have the same number of lines of text as this contract and is the same shape. The labels on the other contracts were more rectangular. Verdict: If this is the movie jacket then it was from the 23380 contract.
2BM2K
Well-Known Member
Roughwear said:
That is very useful photo and it certainly looks as though it could the one.
With regards to the 23380 contract John has stated that he has seen these fitted with Talon M39 bell zipper, the statement can be found in
the description here; http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/sale_rw_0020.html
a2jacketpatches
Active Member
How about the baseball glove? anyone know what model?
2BM2K
Well-Known Member
This thread is proving quite interesting.
Some upadates;
It seems that the general opinion is that the jacket owned by Mr Okamoto is not the one in the film. http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/new-eastman-leather-clothing-escape-a-2.84934/page-4
Gary Eastman has posted a couple of HD photos on the ELC FB page which are very helpful.
He has identified the jacket as Rough Wear 16159 contract because the pocket flaps have shape corners.
See post #12 about identifying RoughWear jackets; http://vintageleatherjackets.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=18953&start=10
Some observations of my own:
Looking at the HD photo's I cannot find any evidence that the zipper has been changed. As it
is a Talon zipper then the most likeliest contract is 27752.
I am still not convinced that the jacket is a re-issue, re-dye one, but is instead a costume department make over.
My experience of re-issue, re-dye jackets is limited but a couple of things do stand out. Firstly, by definiton
such a jacket will probably have been heavily used. Most likely points of wear are the neck lining, the lining/waistband junction and
the lining behind the pockets can get quite dirty. Secondly, they can smell quite badly.
Some of the lining can be seen in one of the HD photo's and there does not appear to be any sign of wear.
The lining does look to be in very good condition.
Some upadates;
It seems that the general opinion is that the jacket owned by Mr Okamoto is not the one in the film. http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/new-eastman-leather-clothing-escape-a-2.84934/page-4
Gary Eastman has posted a couple of HD photos on the ELC FB page which are very helpful.
He has identified the jacket as Rough Wear 16159 contract because the pocket flaps have shape corners.
See post #12 about identifying RoughWear jackets; http://vintageleatherjackets.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=18953&start=10
Some observations of my own:
Looking at the HD photo's I cannot find any evidence that the zipper has been changed. As it
is a Talon zipper then the most likeliest contract is 27752.
I am still not convinced that the jacket is a re-issue, re-dye one, but is instead a costume department make over.
My experience of re-issue, re-dye jackets is limited but a couple of things do stand out. Firstly, by definiton
such a jacket will probably have been heavily used. Most likely points of wear are the neck lining, the lining/waistband junction and
the lining behind the pockets can get quite dirty. Secondly, they can smell quite badly.
Some of the lining can be seen in one of the HD photo's and there does not appear to be any sign of wear.
The lining does look to be in very good condition.
Mr Okamoto's jacket does now not appear to be the jacket worn in the film. It is a RW for sure and the label from a close up scan is not a RW one, although it is the same shape as the 23380 label. Perhaps it was changed in an air depot? The name tag on the jacket appears to have been changed at some stage. The zip on this jacket does appear to have been changed. It may have been a back up jacket for the film, but there is no evidence for this.
Gary Eastman posted on FB today saying that he is convinced the film jacket is a first contract RW from the small 16159 contract. He says:
Gary Eastman posted on FB today saying that he is convinced the film jacket is a first contract RW from the small 16159 contract. He says:
2BM2K
Well-Known Member
Below are the contract identities of the jackets in post #12, http://vintageleatherjackets.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=18953&start=10
Jacket #1 is contract 18091
Jacket #2 is contract 27752
Jacket #3 is contract 16159
Jacket #4 is contract 1401
Jacket #5 is contract 23380
Jacket #1 is contract 18091
Jacket #2 is contract 27752
Jacket #3 is contract 16159
Jacket #4 is contract 1401
Jacket #5 is contract 23380
Here are some more RW pictures of jackets that are in my collection.
AC 16159 in near mint condition.
Note the pointed collar ends and angular pocket flaps. The jacket has a M39 Talon with a rectangular puller.
The next contract AC 18091.
The collar points are a little more rounded as are the pocket flaps. The jacket also has a M39 Talon with a rectangular puller.
The 1401-P with gently curved pocket flaps.
Here is a 23380 which I used to own. Most had Crown zips, although some had Talons with a bell shaped puller.
Finally the 27752. Note the relatively pointed collar and slightly more angular pocket flaps.
Here are some decent scans of the Hilt's A2. Notice how the colour changes with the indoor shots.
Notice the wider gap between the collar edge and the top stitching, a feature found on the 27752 contract.
Here the jacket appear much lighter, similar to the colour of the jacket in McCoys 2008 Perfect Book.
Apparently Mr. Sakurai, the original founder of Real McCoys, back in 1991, was the buyer, and he got it for $20K.
The photo from the Perfect Book of the "front view" has the page rolled up, like a newspaper, which is unfortunate as it distorts the image and the spec lable. I still think this is the jacket from the film. Why would Mr Sakurai spend $20k on a jacket that was not worn by McQueen in the film? They used studio lighting, which doesn't show wrinkles as harshly, and the jacket may have been conditioned in Japan, which would have flattened the wrinkles a little. Certainly the collar doesn't show quite as much wrinkling in the photos, but it's so hard to tell with that poor a scan from the magazine, which is rolled anyway.
It may well be a 16159, but I am still not 100% convinced.
AC 16159 in near mint condition.
Note the pointed collar ends and angular pocket flaps. The jacket has a M39 Talon with a rectangular puller.
The next contract AC 18091.
The collar points are a little more rounded as are the pocket flaps. The jacket also has a M39 Talon with a rectangular puller.
The 1401-P with gently curved pocket flaps.
Here is a 23380 which I used to own. Most had Crown zips, although some had Talons with a bell shaped puller.
Finally the 27752. Note the relatively pointed collar and slightly more angular pocket flaps.
Here are some decent scans of the Hilt's A2. Notice how the colour changes with the indoor shots.
Notice the wider gap between the collar edge and the top stitching, a feature found on the 27752 contract.
Here the jacket appear much lighter, similar to the colour of the jacket in McCoys 2008 Perfect Book.
Apparently Mr. Sakurai, the original founder of Real McCoys, back in 1991, was the buyer, and he got it for $20K.
The photo from the Perfect Book of the "front view" has the page rolled up, like a newspaper, which is unfortunate as it distorts the image and the spec lable. I still think this is the jacket from the film. Why would Mr Sakurai spend $20k on a jacket that was not worn by McQueen in the film? They used studio lighting, which doesn't show wrinkles as harshly, and the jacket may have been conditioned in Japan, which would have flattened the wrinkles a little. Certainly the collar doesn't show quite as much wrinkling in the photos, but it's so hard to tell with that poor a scan from the magazine, which is rolled anyway.
It may well be a 16159, but I am still not 100% convinced.
It is interesting to further compare the new ELC jacket with the one in the film. The photo below from the film shows that the shoulder decal reads "ARMY AIR CORPS" not "ARMY AIR FORCES" which it should read and all companies with the exception of Toys McCoys have it wrong. The most likely reason is because the film costume department got it wrong as
the Hap Arnold Wings emblem was only adopted in February 1942, i.e. after the Army Air Corps were renamed to/replaced by Army Air Forces in June 1941.
Regarding the hand finish I understand that outside the tannery one can't successfully re-dye using pigment over aniline finish hides. It can be done but the new color simply won't hold. I have owned Wartime redyed A2s made from chrome tanned leather and the colour still rubs off on my shirt and trousers! Only time will tell if this happens with the Hilts A2. I really hope it doesn't.
the Hap Arnold Wings emblem was only adopted in February 1942, i.e. after the Army Air Corps were renamed to/replaced by Army Air Forces in June 1941.
Regarding the hand finish I understand that outside the tannery one can't successfully re-dye using pigment over aniline finish hides. It can be done but the new color simply won't hold. I have owned Wartime redyed A2s made from chrome tanned leather and the colour still rubs off on my shirt and trousers! Only time will tell if this happens with the Hilts A2. I really hope it doesn't.
a2jacketpatches
Active Member
Not sure we can call that a decal from the film anymore, If it was at one time it is most certainly painted over entirely. It is obviously hand painted and the Y in ARMY extends below the M. Also. the detail in the wings is totally different after seeing another color photo on FL. Thinking to put any decal on a V.HILTS renders it inaccurate.
