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CBI Rough Wear A2

Silver Surfer

Well-Known Member
of course with out having the jacket in hand, it hard to be absolutely sure, but my gut feeling is that the jac is the real deal. we have all seen originals with stitch holes from other patches having been sewn on. i had an original that had a cbi shoulder patch sewn on over an eto patch. value of the jacket? hard to guess.....$3000-$5000, maybe more. anyone read chinese? if so, then the identity of the airman can be determined. beautiful example, this one.
 

TankBuster

Active Member
The interest is surely due to the fact that the squadron patch on the jacket is for the 23rd Fighter Group. I have not seen a original 23rd FG patch like this one before. Not sure if this one is legit. For reference sake, a nice named 23rd FG jacket with a original 23rd patch sold for 10k on Ebay last year.
 

Roughwear

Well-Known Member
Jeff, this is very helpful and I was aware of the rarety of this 23rd FG patch when I saw the listing. My concern is that the multiple rows of blank stitch holes around all the patches could suggest at worst a faked job or at best the later wartime re-application of the patches.
 

TankBuster

Active Member
Honestly I don't think the 23rd patch is legit.

Here is what the good ones look like...........

Pearsall1-1.jpg
 

RCSignals

Active Member
I'm certainly no expert on what is original. What I do notice though is the cut edges of the badges and leather badge surrounds look 'pristine', almost as fresh cut.
The inside map has folds on it that I'd think may have disappeared in use, as does the back chit which also shows no seat wear. The back chit looks to me to be an AVG style which may be odd with the later period of the jacket?
 

TankBuster

Active Member
It's actually a later blood chit. AVG chits are all pretty similar in style and different from this example. I can make out a 3X,XXX number which places this particular chit as mid to late war.
 

RCSignals

Active Member
I do notice a different character arrangement on the chit, but I don't read Chinese.
There is still the sharp folds in the chit, which I'd think would have flattened/disappeared in use.

It's like it and the map were folded in a square to fit in a pocket, and remained hat way fro a long time.
 

asiamiles

Well-Known Member
My uneducated guess is that the patches and chit and map are all originals but were added (or possibly put back on) to the jacket at a later date. The CBI patch looks to have been restored which would explain the new-looking leather surround. The stitch holes could come from patches that were on the jacket before or from patches that replaced those currently on it; if someone knows the date of the contract and so approximately when it was likely issued that would help in trying to work out some kind of timeline. Is that a leather base that the chit has been sewn to?

謝-尔-曼 = Jer-re-my?
 

Roughwear

Well-Known Member
Miles it is a RW 27752 which would have been made from the late spring of 1942 until sometime in 1943. The contract was placed before late May 1942.
 

dmar836

Well-Known Member
I asked if there was ever any restoration or anything done on the shoulder patches as the leather borders appear to have a different patina.
His sent two responses - one yesterday, then another unsolicited one this am.

Yesterday he wrote:
I just checked the leather surrounding the shoulder patches in very bright light against the rest of the leather on the jacket, and to my eye the patina matches perfectly. The pictures were taken in artificial light and perhaps that has caused some confusion. I see absolutely no inconsistency. Everything is exactly the same. There has been no alteration or restoration of this jacket. It is original.

Phil

This am he wrote:
One other suggestion I would like to make. I would respectfully suggest that if you have significant doubts as to the authenticity and originality of the jacket, you should not bid for it. Please do not take offense at this suggestion, but since you seem to already have reservations, perhaps this is not the right auction for you. Anyway, thank you for your consideration, and please think carefully before bidding. I do not represent the authenticity of an item without very careful attention and consideration. I obviously was not present when the jacket was first issued to the military during the war. As an aside, my wife has a better eye than I do and she has examined it with me and sees perfect consistency throughout in its patina. I doubt that the original manufacturer of the jacket ever expected this kind of scrutiny.

Best regards,
Phil
 

Roughwear

Well-Known Member
Interesting. I wonder why he fails to mention the multiple rows of stitch holes and was keen for you not to bid! :roll:
 

RCSignals

Active Member
Your question obviously was eating at him.

Artificial light makes cut edges of old leather look new?
makes hard fold lines appear in silk maps that should be smoothed from being worn against a back? Same for cloth chits on a back panel?

For the price he should welcome such questions
 

Roughwear

Well-Known Member
The reserve has now been met and the jacket is selling for over $2k, so I guess some people still believe the patches are original to the jacket. :roll:
 

dmar836

Well-Known Member
This guy wrote me a third time, again unsolicited.

Kindly go to the site. There is more information posted there re the jacket thanks to an email from a retired Marine Corps. vet. Thank you.

- collossus3

This addition does nothing but quote a Google-type explanation of the AVG.

I looked at it again and:
I think the inside "pocket" chit is older and shows the age of having been there.
The map lining is not only still creased from being folded small but doesn't bellow, crease, or show any age at the waist knit - like it was never worn since.
I don't collect chits but that Washington number in the 3X,XXX range is pretty damning. I have no proof of that being a late number.
That chit on the back is still creased too and shows what looks like storage damage on the upper right edge.
Those cut leather edges still show no age to me.
The name of the pilot is not given to be researched.
Would be interesting to black light it and study the thread on this deal.

Seller has added many questions but did not allow any doubter's questions to be shown - even my friendly inquiry. To debunk the doubters, he should add better pics of those questioned areas. If authentic, it would proof itself.
I love when they pepper the auction with details that any history buff would already know or could Google and expect that to act as dome proof of authenticity. The inquiry about the CBI patch shows the type of guys watching - they know just enough to get taken!

Whether this guys "uncle" story is true to him or not, this is a nice jacket and selling currently at the sum of the parts (supposedly named jacked in wearable size with nice Sqdn patch) I'll bet money this was dolled up since the war,maybe just after, with either surplus or brought back parts.

I sure would like to see it in person but it will certainly go higher.

JMO,
Dave
 

dmar836

Well-Known Member
It even looks like that 14th AAF shoulder patch has an original leather border under the newer one. That would be a total of 4 iterations on that sleeve. Still a nice jacket and with true provenance(and maybe a few less stitch holes) would likely have brought more.

I finally wrote back this am asking for the name of his "uncle" pilot to research as I couldn't read the Chinese tag - that might even be a generic phrase for "friend" or "pilot" or something. He never responded with a name which was odd considering he wrote me three times to promote the sale since I first wrote him.

Now that it's sold, I'm guessing the new owner won't receive a name either and the trail will grow cold quickly. So for now this stands as an unnamed jacket.

Guess we should get used to this.

Dave
 

RCSignals

Active Member
It kind of seems odd he didn't give the name of the pilot (his uncle) in the auction. Often people do when claiming such provenance. That or at least state the name and other details are available on request.

The jacket may well have been his uncles, but his uncle may have had it put together with his souvenirs after the war. We'll never know.
 

JDAM

Member
Roughwear said:
$3375. :!: :eek:

If anything, I suppose that's confirmation that some collectors had serious doubts. If I was going to spend that money I'd opt for a real one like below.

DSCN6323.jpg
 
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