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Buttoned Pocket Flaps A-2 Jackets
- Thread starter 33-1729
- Start date
Ken at Aero Leather
Well-Known Member
It's clear from the pic of Hap Arnold that the top stitch on the sleeve head goes under the epaulette, not over it as is the case on all the other known contracts.
The X stitch pattern has to be an eductated guess (ignoring my error, of course) but it's in the right place, also noted from the HA pics
The X stitch pattern has to be an eductated guess (ignoring my error, of course) but it's in the right place, also noted from the HA pics
2BM2K
Well-Known Member
The jacket on the left does look a little different in the pockets. Also the epaulettes are dragging back over the shoulder as can sometimes be seen with Webers.
The jacket could be a button version of the Werber 6225 contract.
The Officer is Maj. Hugh J. Knerr, I have searched for more photo's but have not found any.
This Alaska photo seems to be part of a series where each airman is photographed individualy. The photo's being of high quality
It seems like NARA have these photo's but I can't access them on-line.
Skyhawk
Well-Known Member
Looks like a throat latch. Possibly a non-standard type. Hard to tell.
zoomer
Well-Known Member
The Security wearer on the right is Lt. Leonard Harman. In 1944, by-then Col. Harman was at the controls of the first B-29 to report to combat duty.
Er? Please elaborate.
2BM2K
Well-Known Member
Here is possibly another prototype A2 jacket. The wearer is Major Herbert Dargue, he was with the 2nd Bomb Group from 1930 to 1934.
The first photo is a head and shoulders shot which looks to cropped from a bigger photo. The patch is the 2nd Bomb Group. No epaulettes
and the collar looks simillar to Sptaz's jacket.
The next photo is only a side view but does show enough to be of interest. More importantly the photograph
does have a date and that date is the 24th April 1930 .
The occassion is the dedication of Columbia SC Municipal Airport (Owens Field). The photo is posted on a blog, here;
https://thejivebombers.wordpress.com/2018/04/20/2473/
Here is a cropped and enlarged version;
I have not been able to find any more phot0's of the jacket, there should be some somewhere.
The first photo is a head and shoulders shot which looks to cropped from a bigger photo. The patch is the 2nd Bomb Group. No epaulettes
and the collar looks simillar to Sptaz's jacket.
The next photo is only a side view but does show enough to be of interest. More importantly the photograph
does have a date and that date is the 24th April 1930 .
The occassion is the dedication of Columbia SC Municipal Airport (Owens Field). The photo is posted on a blog, here;
https://thejivebombers.wordpress.com/2018/04/20/2473/
Here is a cropped and enlarged version;
I have not been able to find any more phot0's of the jacket, there should be some somewhere.
zoomer
Well-Known Member
Good sleuthing 2BM2K!!!
A bit about Bert Dargue (say darg): In 1916 he was with the air squadron searching for Pancho Villa in Mexico, commanded the aerial observation school in WW1, and in 1926 helped draft the legislation that would become the Army Air Corps Act.
Maj. Gen. Dargue was the first US general killed in WW2. Immediately after Pearl Harbor, Secy. of War Stimson ordered him to oversee an investigation of Army readiness in Hawaii at the time of the attack. On Dec. 12, 1941, Dargue left California at the controls of a B-18, which crashed in the Sierra Nevadas. The wreck wasn't found for 5 months.
A bit about Bert Dargue (say darg): In 1916 he was with the air squadron searching for Pancho Villa in Mexico, commanded the aerial observation school in WW1, and in 1926 helped draft the legislation that would become the Army Air Corps Act.
Maj. Gen. Dargue was the first US general killed in WW2. Immediately after Pearl Harbor, Secy. of War Stimson ordered him to oversee an investigation of Army readiness in Hawaii at the time of the attack. On Dec. 12, 1941, Dargue left California at the controls of a B-18, which crashed in the Sierra Nevadas. The wreck wasn't found for 5 months.
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Skyhawk
Well-Known Member
Yes it does! I was pointing out the features on Spatz jacket as being very similar to the goldsmith jacket. This is no doubt from the same test batch with the no epaulets and other features that match.
Now with this photo the collar stand is visible and it is very tall! The collar shape is a dead match for the goldsmith jacket.
I believe the evidence is piling up in favor of Goldsmith making these test jackets. I mean it is basically The Goldsmith jacket without epaulets. Same pocket size and shape, Same collar size and shape, no snaps in the collar. This one doesn't have the loop on the collar either. Maybe the throat latch wasn't cutting the mustard on the test jackets so they installed a collar loop and button to reinforce the closure for the contract jacket.
And I have enough details to reproduce this jacket now as well. So be on the look out for updates on the Goldsmith A-2 Test Jacket reproduction.
Regards,
Jay
zoomer
Well-Known Member
What we'd call in aircraft terms the "XA-2", as opposed to the service test contract "YA-2".
Why wouldn't Goldsmith have built these as well, seeing as they were so convenient to Wright Field?
And the chief of Field Services for the AAC Materiel Division in 1930 - presumably responsible for getting these jackets onto the backs of colleagues - was none other than Maj. Henry H. Arnold. So don't be too surprised if a pic of Hap in an XA-2 turns up.
Why wouldn't Goldsmith have built these as well, seeing as they were so convenient to Wright Field?
And the chief of Field Services for the AAC Materiel Division in 1930 - presumably responsible for getting these jackets onto the backs of colleagues - was none other than Maj. Henry H. Arnold. So don't be too surprised if a pic of Hap in an XA-2 turns up.
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zoomer
Well-Known Member
Add to the Werber 32-6225 sightings this pic of 2Lt. Robert W. (Bill) Goetz of Rockwell Field, whom I mentioned earlier in connection with the Advanced Avigation Training School. Among the scrapbook entries of this dashing young officer were the photos of several utterly lovely women – the romance of the air was definitely "a thing" in early '30s California.
A Minneapolis native, Bill Goetz was commissioned in the AAC in 1929. During training at Kelly Field, he joined the Caterpillar Club when his safety belt snapped and he was thrown from his plane.
Lt. Goetz died of diphtheria at the March Field base hospital in April, 1935, aged 26.
A Minneapolis native, Bill Goetz was commissioned in the AAC in 1929. During training at Kelly Field, he joined the Caterpillar Club when his safety belt snapped and he was thrown from his plane.
Lt. Goetz died of diphtheria at the March Field base hospital in April, 1935, aged 26.
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Great picture and history! Do you know when it was taken?
Suspect it is a snap pocket 33-1729, but I'm open to it being a 32-6225 if the date fits.
I see what you mean.
Using the blow up of the picture you posted in #393 (below), it looks to me from left to right as a Werber 32-6225, Werber 33-1729 (twice), and SAT 32-485. The snap pocket Werber in the center having the rounded pocket corners as noted, as does the button flapped jacket on the far left (32-6225?). The SAT 32-485 having square pocket bottoms.
In post #413 I wonder if this square pocket may have been from normal variation during production at Werber as they had all the snap-pocket contracts until the Aero Clothing & Tanning Co. 37-3061P contract. (I am considering the first three contracts all had button pockets given the paperwork in post #1.)
Or maybe something new.
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Yes, the shape of the pocket bottoms may just have been a cutting variation to some jackets within the 33-1729. It is possible that later batches within this first Werber order had snaps on the pockets. A photo of a Werber dated to the 1932 fiscal year would be very helpful here.
Typically changing contracts mid-stream is frowned upon, but it is possible Werber went from button to snap pockets during one.
I recall reading that Werber had a lock on the early A-2 contracts until Aero Clothing & Tanning Co. came along in 1937. Given the paperwork hasn't been found for 33-1729, I wonder if another existed, as the picture in post #413 has SAT-like square pocket bottoms and Werber-like pocket flaps. Or maybe normal 33-1729 variation. I'm not certain how the pockets were made, but the picture in post #416 shows consistent pocket bottoms from the buttoned pocket flaps on the left (32-6225?) to the snap pocket flap in the center (33-1729?). I would guess a large operation like Werber would automate as much as possible, but I don't know their actual setup. Still, the jacket details look pretty consistent across the two contracts. Perhaps Ken would kindly supply some more insight.
Yes! 1932 or earlier A-2 photos would be a great help!
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Ken at Aero Leather
Well-Known Member
Andrew is probably far better informed on Werber than I am
Pocket corners are formed to some extent by the machinist, they'd arrive flat, the turnings would be hammered and the corners formed so some variation can be expected even if it's only caused by leather thickness variations or the amount of bagging he or she gives the pocket
Pocket corners are formed to some extent by the machinist, they'd arrive flat, the turnings would be hammered and the corners formed so some variation can be expected even if it's only caused by leather thickness variations or the amount of bagging he or she gives the pocket
zoomer
Well-Known Member
My guess is 1933. The name tag over the pocket wasn’t done much later.
