Buttoned Pocket Flaps A-2 Jackets

[Ken at Aero Leather]

I would not be surprised if all Werber A-2 contracts had snap-pockets, given their cost-conscious approach. Just don't know for certain (yet).

To put these buttonholes in perspective,

To Stud the pocket flaps , 5 seconds each tops
Machine Automatic Button Hole, 5 seconds plus approx another 60 seconds to hand sew a stemmed button
It took me the same time to make the two pocket flaps as it took me to put the rest of bodyshell together up to lining stage, maybe 10-15 minutes each, OK I was working the best way out as I made the buttonholes but I doubt if I could get it down to under 5 minutes each plus button sewing time.

 

[zoomer]

What do you bet there had been problems with A-1 buttonholes unraveling and damaging the flaps in service.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

What do you bet there had been problems with A-1 buttonholes unraveling and damaging the flaps in service.

Any problem with the A-1 pocket flaps would be far more likely to be caused by the cotton facing (AKA pocket flap backing) fraying away from the buttonhole stitch, rather than the button hole stitch itself unravelling, which is fairly rare.
Hence "Leather Facings" on the A-2 spec sheet
We often see this on vintage cuffs with cotton backing, the buttonholes still work fine but the cotton gets very scruffy and frayed at the edges after a while if the wearer has been using the buttons a lot.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

I would not be surprised if all Werber A-2 contracts had snap-pockets, given their cost-conscious approach. Just don't know for certain (yet).

For arguments sake lets assume that fitting early style button flaps only added 5 mins to the manufacturing time of an A-2 as opposed to studs.
It's pretty clear that a single jacket would have taken perhaps a tad over one hour per operator to run through production.
Studding would save 175 minutes per operator per week, virtually 3 jackets worth of time per week.
Multiply that by, lets say, 40 operators, and thats 120 more A-2s a week going through a small to medium size factory. Even rounded down to a conservative 100 pieces, that's a hell of a good reason to use press studs.
Machined button holes would save a similar amount of time, a tad less due to button sewing time

 

[33-1729]

For arguments sake lets assume that fitting early style button flaps only added 5 mins to the manufacturing time of an A-2 as opposed to studs.
It's pretty clear that a single jacket would have taken perhaps a tad over one hour per operator to run through production.
Studding would save 175 minutes per operator per week, virtually 3 jackets worth of time per week.
Multiply that by, lets say, 40 operators, and thats 120 more A-2s a week going through a small to medium size factory. Even rounded down to a conservative 100 pieces, that's a hell of a good reason to use press studs.
Machined button holes would save a similar amount of time, a tad less due to button sewing time

Yes, I think a number of good arguments can be made for moving from buttoned pocket flaps to snap pockets, as they ultimately did. If the Werber contracts all had snap pockets, it would probably be very difficult to pick out a Werber 32-6225 from a Werber 33-1729 by details alone.

What we need is an A-2 picture accurately dated before the start of the 1933 fiscal year (on or before 30-Jun-1932) that has snap pockets or a buttoned pocket jacket with typical Werber details. Then we'll know. I have been looking, but no luck yet. I hope someone else has better luck than me!

 

[2BM2K]

So far the best photo showing what might be a Werber 32-6225 is this one;

 

[33-1729]

So far the best photo showing what might be a Werber 32-6225 is this one;

View attachment 7002

Yes, I agree, but I am not that confident in my own ability to state so. I just don't have that level of experience. What do Roughwear, Ken, et al see? Do they all concur?

 

[2BM2K]

I am thinking along the lines of trying to identify the airmen (I have lost the details of where I originally got the photo from, maybe dated 1934),
their units and tracking back to find more photo's.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Yes, I agree, but I am not that confident in my own ability to state so. I just don't have that level of experience. What do Roughwear, Ken, et al see? Do they all concur?

Blowing up the pics on my laptop just distorts the pocket flaps, also I'm no authority on Werber, sorry I can't help...........Andrew?

 

[2BM2K]

Enlarged and enhanced version;

 

[zoomer]

I am thinking along the lines of trying to identify the airmen (I have lost the details of where I originally got the photo from, maybe dated 1934),
their units and tracking back to find more photo's.

Difficult in the extreme for the 30s. Any you do find will likely be very small and/or group shots. The more people in a photo then, the more it was worth taking in a decent size format. (I have the same problem with musicians from this era.)

I have no date beyond mid-late 30s, but they were with the 88th Recon Sq., 7th BG, at Hamilton Field, CA. Left is Lt. Gene Tibbets wearing the group patch, then Lts. Ronald Walker and Howard Bronson with the 88th insignia. The 7th BG was based here from 1935 till after Pearl Harbor.

 

[2BM2K]

Here is a photo that I have steadfastly ignored, previously I assumed that the jacket was a civillion type
as it did not match any known contract, but now....

Looking at it again I noticed that the pocket has a double seam and appears to have a pencil slot.

I don't who the pilot is, hopefully someone will recognise him.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Collar, Epaulettes and pockets look like the "Goldsmith"
Must have been a hot-shot to be photographed with Mary Pickford

She would have been 50 in 1932, how old does she look in the pic?
My wife who is uncaningly good at guessing folks ages from (pre botox) pics says she looks in her late 40s

 

[Skyhawk]

Here is a photo that I have steadfastly ignored, previously I assumed that the jacket was a civillion type
as it did not match any known contract, but now....

Looking at it again I noticed that the pocket has a double seam and appears to have a pencil slot.

I don't who the pilot is, hopefully someone will recognise him.

View attachment 7056

Yes sir another Goldsmith!
Has to be because of the pocket, set back epaulets, collar loop, no collar snaps and big collar.

GREAT JOB!!

Thanks for this! We can ID these new features, the zip puller, The pencil slot (pocket was previously not visible) and it appears that the epaulets are actually set back and start AT the shoulder seam rather than being centered on the seam. I had suspected this because of how they appear in the photos.

Regards,
Jay

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Could the chap in the Beret be Douglas Fairbanks Jnr (Mr Pickford)?

 

[Skyhawk]

The fit looks pretty damn good on him! Pattern appears not so potato sack like here.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

it appears that the epaulets are actually set back and start AT the shoulder seam rather than being centered on the seam.

Regards,
Jay

I don't think so, too high

 

[B-Man2]

Notice that Mary was given her own set of flight wings. Smooth move on the pilots part

 

[zoomer]

It's Arnold again. The only senior officer in the AAC then with a nose for publicity. No other base commander would have dared play host to news photographers or public figures who were not aviators. And of course, only March Field was convenient to Hollywood.


I believe the Navy LCDR next to Arnold to be Charles Rosendahl, then skipper of the airship USS Akron and a major advocate of LTA aviation. If it's Rosy, it is prior to July, 1932, when he was reassigned to surface ships for 2 years.


The man at right, Tom Hamilton, founded Hamilton Standard propeller works, then newly relocated to southern California. Here he is with NACA engineer Fred Weick (l) and Chas. A. Lindbergh (r) about 1935.


Whoever the beret’d officer is, he is not named Douglas Fairbanks, either Jr. or Sr. (Doug Jr. was married to Joan Crawford then...back when you would have married Joan Crawford! Mary Pickford would split from Papa Doug in ‘36 to marry Buddy Rogers.)

His blouse is a distinctly French style with the shirt-like collar bearing insignia tabs, and the eagle-in-a-wreath is the French "wings."

 

[B-Man2]

Zoomer

Well done!! Impressive research in record time!
Cheers