Buttoned Pocket Flaps A-2 Jackets

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Now we are well into this thread has anyone got any further thoughts on my post #44 on this thread suggesting the buttonholes were made this way due to a misunderstanding of terminology
"My theory........
There was a misunderstanding of the term "Leather Faced" by the early contractors (Goldsmith)
If I had read the spec back in 1930, I'd have read that as" leather backing to pocket flap", as opposed to a cloth backing, quite common in the 1920s. We'd have backed the flaps in leather and used our Button Hole machine!"
Incidentally, at Aero the rear side of a flapped pocket has always been referred to by us as "the pocket facing"

 

[33-1729]

Now we are well into this thread has anyone got any further thoughts on my post #44 on this thread suggesting the buttonholes were made this way due to a misunderstanding of terminology
"My theory........
There was a misunderstanding of the term "Leather Faced" by the early contractors (Goldsmith)
If I had read the spec back in 1930, I'd have read that as" leather backing to pocket flap", as opposed to a cloth backing, quite common in the 1920s. We'd have backed the flaps in leather and used our Button Hole machine!"
Incidentally, at Aero the rear side of a flapped pocket has always been referred to by us as "the pocket facing"

Yes, of course. Writing what is thought to be a clear specification is near impossible given the varying perspectives of the audience(s). I know this from way too much experience. Just another reason why specifications need to be constantly updated with actual audience inputs.

Also, there is no need to guess what happened as we have a paper trail:

The A-2 service test of the pre-production jackets occurred Sept 20, 1930 (per the Type Designation Sheet in C.G. Sweeting’s book “Combat Flying Clothing” and posted in another thread). Paperwork below shows the first three production A-2 contracts, based upon the May 9, 1931 approved 94-3040 spec, and actual quantities procured dated July 19, 1932. Prior to 1976 the fiscal year began on 1 July and ended on 30 June. The wide numerical spacing from SAT 32-485 to Werber 32-6225 suggests SAT got the contract around the actual Q3-4’1931 timeframe and Werber in the beginning half of the actual 1932 timeframe. We can more closely determine exactly when with a bit more digging.

 

[Roughwear]

So with a 1931 fiscal year could this mean that the Goldsmith order could have been for the test jackets used for the service tests on A-2s in September 1930? It would be important to know if a spec number was on the Goldsmith labels.

 

[33-1729]

So with a 1931 fiscal year could this mean that the Goldsmith order could have been for the test jackets used for the service tests on A-2s in September 1930? It would be important to know if a spec number was on the Goldsmith labels.

No. The paperwork above clearly states all three contracts, including Goldsmith 31-1897, conformed to the 94-3040 production specification. The pre-production samples in Sept 1930 were of a different batch(es). It is quite possible though that the production 94-3040 spec was changed in-between contracts.

 

[Roughwear]

So why was the order for 25 jackets from Goldsmith so small compared with the two succeeding orders? Of course they may not have had the capacity to make a large quantity of A-2s, but surely if there was a bidding process for the order there must have been potential contractors capable of fulfilling larger orders. Ordering just 25 A-2s seems strange if the service tests had been completed.

 

[MeachamLake]

No. The paperwork above clearly states all three contracts, including Goldsmith 31-1897, conformed to the 94-3040 production specification. The pre-production samples in Sept 1930 were of a different batch(es). It is quite possible though that the production 94-3040 spec was changed in-between contracts.

Interesting. Do you think then that the Goldsmith jackets could have been a test run of the 94-3040 specification intended as a 'proof of concept' before the spec was put into full production?

Does this also mean that the pre-production test samples from 1930 are now the holy grail of jacket collecting - the true first A-2s?

 

[MeachamLake]

So why was the order for 25 jackets from Goldsmith so small compared with the two succeeding orders? Of course they may not have had the capacity to make a large quantity of A-2s, but surely if there was a bidding process for the order there must have been potential contractors capable of fulfilling larger orders. Ordering just 25 A-2s seems strange if the service tests had been completed.

This is what bugs me about this whole thing - 25 seems like such a nice round number too. The fact that Wright Patterson is only about an hour away from Cincinatti makes me think the fact they were local must have been a big part of why they were awarded the work - it would suggest proximity to the manufacturer was of some importance. I'm not aware of any other makers in the area who the Air Force could have gone to?

Also, do we know who produced the 1930 test sample jackets?

 

[Skyhawk]

Okay, so here we have mention of pre production samples and the photo of Carl Spatz in an un identified, A-2 like jacket without epaulets. Could this possibly be the A-2 pre production run!

I see a new reproduction idea forming here.......
-Jay

 

[MeachamLake]

Okay, so here we have mention of pre production samples and the photo of Carl Spatz in an un identified, A-2 like jacket without epaulets. Could this possibly be the A-2 pre production run!
View attachment 6753
I see a new reproduction idea forming here.......
-Jay

Do you know what date that photo was taken? Where is it originally from?

If we can get the date then it will help enourmously...

Also - from here it doesn't look like Spaatz's jacket has the A1 style button and loop seen on Hap's jacket?

 

[Roughwear]

I would agree proximity was probably a reason why Goldsmith was chosen and they may have been a test run to iron out any production/procurement of material issues prior to larger orders being placed.

 

[MeachamLake]

Looks like there's a Carl Spaatz museum opening...I wonder if it's worth getting in contact with anybody involved to see if any of his equipment was saved by family members? That jacket could well be locked away somewhere as we speak...

http://www.readingeagle.com/news/article/museum-planned--to-honor-gen-spaatz

 

[Skyhawk]

Early 1930's. Here's another shot of the same jacket. It has no collar loop, that's a clean edge on that collar. It also has no collar snaps, no epps, button flap with inset style button holes. Looks like a test A-2 to me.

-Jay

 

[Roughwear]

Do you know what date that photo was taken? Where is it originally from?

If we can get the date then it will help enourmously...

Also - from here it doesn't look like Spaatz's jacket has the A1 style button and loop seen on Hap's jacket?

Perhaps this was an earlier Goldsmith test jacket, but not one made under their order for 25!

 

[Skyhawk]

Perhaps this was an earlier Goldsmith test jacket, but not one made under their order for 25!

Possible but the pocket shape is is completely different and no collar loop. Let me see what else I can identify.....

 

[MeachamLake]

Early 1930's. Here's another shot of the same jacket. It has no collar loop, that's a clean edge on that collar. It also has no collar snaps, no epps, button flap with inset style button holes. Looks like a test A-2 to me.
-Jay

That's definitely a different jacket to Hap Arnold's, you're right.

 

[Roughwear]

Possible but the pocket shape is is completely different and no collar loop. Let me see what else I can identify.....

I was not been entirely serious here, but I too would love to know who made the test jackets. Perhaps G&F made them as they had made A-1s?

 

[Skyhawk]

OK, what am seeing is the same small rivet Hookless Zip, no collar snaps, the pockets have double top stitching, the pocket flaps...... we are too far away.
It's March Base.

I concur with all the matching feature's. It is probably a Goldsmith test run!

Looks like I may be making another Goldsmith jacket. Anybody got images of a US Air Corps research label.

 

[MeachamLake]

Another photo of Spaatz...do my eyes deceive me, or does his jacket look like an A-1 with an A-2 style collar?! It doesn't look knitted like the other guys?

 

[Skyhawk]

No that's his shirt collar. It comes from under the jacket. When you blow it up that capeskin has some insane grain!!!

 

[Roughwear]

I was going to say the same, shirt collar with rank insignia sewn on!