Are We Losing the “Vintage “ in Vintage Leather Jackets ? .. An Opinion Piece.

[B-Man2]

One of the things, that I’ve always enjoyed about VLJ besides the jackets is, that it’s always been a platform for the sharing of ideas , experiences and opinions . If you have a thought, or an opinion that you’d like to share with everyone , VLJ is a great place to do just that . There are however some ground rules, which you need to be aware of and accept before you put yourself out here for all to read and digest . One of which is, your opinions may not always be shared by others on this forum , and those who don’t have an absolute right to disagree with you, and to do so in a direct and forthright manner. Ok , so with those perimeters in mind, I’ve decided to post this opinion piece and hopefully some of you will feel free to post your thoughts on it as well . The title pretty much says it all . Are we losing the “V”in VLJ?
When I first started reading VLJ in 2009, it was the first forum that I had ever joined . There were others that I would check in on occasionally , but none held my interest as thoroughly as VLJ. As I look back now, I realize that most of what attracted me to this forum, sadly … has faded away over the years.
For those of you who may be new here , let me say that while you may find your time here interesting and enjoyable , the forum is a small part of what it used to be . The Vintage Leather Jacket Forum was one of the leading forums to learn about just that,….. Vintage Leather Jackets . Predominantly vintage military jackets, but also vintage civilian jackets . It was a great place to learn about them because several who were here at that time, were posting pieces about old jackets on a daily basis, complete with photographs , analyzing and scrutinizing every intricate part of the jacket and talking about the placement of the zippers and detailed photos of methods of attachment of various sections of the old jackets . This forum was truly a place to learn about a variety of topics having to do with older turn of the century civilian and WWII Flight jackets. However, it seems that much of that is gone now, along with some of those who had a wealth of knowledge about these subjects . Occasionally someone will post a vintage jacket that will draws some “oohs and Ahh’s “ but not much more than that . Once again for the newer guys, I realize that most of you probably won’t get this post as you weren’t around back then and really don’t have any experiences from that period to compare with to today’s forum . But it was different . Today the focus seems to be around cheap ….No … let me rephrase that… inexpensive repro jackets . As I read through the threads these days , much of what is posted is less technical , less dedicated to the art of finding and preserving the history of vintage jackets and less focused on the educational side of collecting some of these great historic artifacts . Most will say, that if you’re fortunate enough to be able to afford to collect antique jackets, great for you, but many of us don’t have the financial abilities to do that . Once again I totally get that and agree with you on that topic . The Covid thing has left some families destitute and without the necessities of life . But that’s not what I’m discussing here . Years ago, many weren’t able to afford to purchase vintage jackets and others had no desire to enter into that arena . However , that did not prevent them from wanting to learn and to experience as much about the hobby as possible .Once again I think that these days, the focus is on learning about what creates a good inexpensive repro . Sadly I think the “Vintage” in VLJ is slowly fading away . I think the times and the focus of many have changed . Maybe it’s time to reconsider an alternative name , something like the “Vintage Reproduction Leather Forum” . Like I said at the top of this thread , this is just my opinion. I hope some of you will share your opinions as well . Both positive and negative responses are welcome.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Cheers

 

[Edward]

stick around for another 10 to 15 years and all of our ELC and GW's will be vintage... those new snot nosed kids with their minty Fivestar jackets can suck it.

 

[mulceber]

Well said, Burt. I generally agree. I've been here for much less time than many others, and when I got here the vintage jackets were in the process of getting crowded out by repros. Now the high-end repros are getting crowded out by the budget options. I'm not sure what a solution to that would look like.

I do wish there was more discussion of vintage jackets. When a thread in the "vintage" section pops up, I generally try to stop in and contribute, but a lot of the time it's about non-leather flight jackets, about which (with a few exceptions), I don't have much knowledge - or interest, to be honest. That's no one's fault, and people should be able to share what they like. I'm just sharing my thoughts.

Going forward, I guess I'll try to contribute something more than just "nice jacket," if I have the ability to. As to the high-end repros getting crowded out by the budget options, would there be a way either to confine the Five Star conversation to one sub-forum, or to create a sub-forum for high-end repros (RMC, ELC, GW, & BR, maybe a couple others)? My thinking is that people who aren't interested in Five Star/Bronson/AVI are driven away from the board because those makers are everywhere now. If there was a sub-forum (or several) without those makers, the people who have gone silent might set their notifications to let them know when there's a thread in the subforum they like, and so they might participate more.

 

[Nickb123]

I often go back and read the pages dating several years ago. It’s too bad many folks left, especially people like Andrew who seemed to have so many cool pieces and encyclopedic knowledge. But I have noticed quite a bit of repro talk back then too. In fact, if you go to say page 50 or so of the archived pages there is a ton of GW talk. So there seems the heavy interest in repros has remained present; however with the loss of so many members, a lot of potential vintage discussion is also not present. Less folks posting who can present their knowledge and pieces owned.

My biggest regret is not having the knowledge to really further the vintage flight jacket discussion, myself. I do wish, however, that some of those gents (many long before my time) would return. The forum does have its highlights though, ex being Shawn’s Werber everyone was trying to figure out, or other attic oddities. Those threads are my favorite.

 

[ausreenactor]

It is always about Vintage Leather Jackets...

Vintage is anything made post 1921 to pre -2001, so most ELCs and Aero jackets are GTG!

 

[Dom]

Hi Burt....you hit the nail on the head. Back when I started into the A-2 arena I was collecting just originals. I was lucky enough to be in the area with Paul Sanders (who’s collection was second to none, of all original WWII A-2’s) and several of us would get together at his place and just visit. This was during the time of the Vintage Leather Jacket Yahoo group, which whenever anyone of us got a new jacket pictures were taken and posted of them. This was also when nice originals could still be had for between 1-2k, and only the big sizes commanded more money. Those were the days....
Dom

 

[B-Man2]

Hi Burt....you hit the nail on the head. Back when I started into the A-2 arena I was collecting just originals. I was lucky enough to be in the area with Paul Sanders (who’s collection was second to none, of all original WWII A-2’s) and several of us would get together at his place and just visit. This was during the time of the Vintage Leather Jacket Yahoo group, which whenever anyone of us got a new jacket pictures were taken and posted of them. This was also when nice originals could still be had for between 1-2k, and only the big sizes commanded more money. Those were the days....
Dom

Dom
Things have changed quite a bit since then . They were certainly good days if you were into originals and vintage jackets .

 

[CBI]

Yes, I remember the old days and the wonderful knowledge but to be honest, as much as I love these jackets, I am not super interested in the details. For example, with my interest in WW2 aviation and well, WW2 in general, there is just too much to learn and digest to really have me care about whether one A-2 contract had more rounded pocket flap corners or bucket vs. nipple snaps. I love these old flight jackets but they are just one extremely small aspect of vintage aviation and there is just too much info for me to deep dive on jackets. I don't think most pilots and aircrew ever even really cared about these as they were simply needed flight gear. I do love the look and history but........................

 

[Pilot]

Very well said Burt!
Repro jackets are no vintage, just copies good or not so good… with more or less attention to details . Per definition,vintage are „originals“ ( not plagiarized ) items made and having aged….
It applies for jackets, cars, watches, furnitures etc…. eg: a fake watch or T-shirt will never be handled as vintage…
Ken pointed it also out a few months ago.. „ when are we discussing vintage again?“
„The Forum should change its name to…“

 

[MaydayWei]

I've only recently gotten into all this so I really can't say.
But if it really was like you said it was, then I wish it were the good old days!
Nowadays the only affordable originals in good wearable condition are the later model G-1s.
Maybe some 50s-60s USAF cloth flight kit, CWUs, CVCs etc. But original A-2s? Not easy to find, unfortunately...
If they were easy to find and cheaper, I'd hazard a guess we'd have more V in the VLJ.

 

[Pilot]

Vintage jackets can also be biker, long coats, barn stormer , early aviators, motorcycle jackets etc… not necessarily military issued… just my opinion.

 

[VeraVoulik]

Not a specialist, but vintage to me is more linked with all the attires and lifestyle which comes with jackets. All vintage parts of the forum have a very important educational purpose and it's a pleasure to read.

About the "cheaper way", I won't comment...but cheap has always a very good reason to be cheap and I don't think this way will last long.

 

[SuinBruin]

Nothing stays the same... I think I agree with your observations, Burt, and there's no one reason for the change. Many of the mysteries and details of vintage flight jackets, especially A-2s, have been sniffed out by enthusiasts, and folks like John Chapman, and now of course you can just buy Gary Eastman's manual and have much of that info at your fingertips. Also, each passing year sees the cost of originals go up, and the number of originals go down. Red rot and other damage claim any number of flight jackets every year. Moreover, the number of flight jacket geeks is likely stable or shrinking... I doubt very many Gen Zers are or will be interested, and Gen X and Boomers are overrepresented here.

But the forum has remained pretty vibrant, which pleasantly surprises me. Other vintage clothing sites are becoming moribund, and only within the past several years the forum has seen light shed on Goldsmith and other prototype or early A-2s, as well as new info on the V-505 (which someone really should replicate). Viva the Dead Horse Society!

 

[Silver Surfer]

ya know my opinion, so, nothing to add.

 

[Flightengineer]

I'm joined only 3 yars ago for the knowledge of vintage jackets but stayed here because not only of them. This forum unit people from all over the world with similar interests - the good old things, the good old planes, the good old times and probably precisely because we are all different, but we look at certain things the same way, we are here and I'm glad that several members here have become my friends.
Like Nick, I often read old threads and it is very instructive.
I'm pleased that I was able to make my very modest contribution and it was interesting for someone to read about the vintage jackets I own.
Yes, I would like "V" to be more, but objectively, life changes all the time, just like circumstances.

 

[Mr. Mike]

As you know I have joined this forum just recently so please excuse in case some background of what has been discussed and shared over the years might be inadvertently dropping off here. I have been addicted to the WWII flight jacket+ topic however long time before even the internet was invented and at these times you could almost only acquire expertise through fairs, museum visits and the study of books. Lot has changed since then. I see your points regarding the fading "V" but as you already noted some knowledge of these treasures fades away together with the number of existing originals while on the other side some dedicated expert knowledge has almost become common sense, like through Gary's manual (which I still consider as great because it provides a common ground to discuss - it just shouldn't be the only source for discussion).
However, I have always considered a good repro as what it should be - a tribute and sign of honest respect to that "V" time. And that is why it makes a tremendous difference because along the effort in research, knowledge, experience and the love for details and good craftsmanship you can 'read' how much respect and dedication went into such a repro, and that is why we love guys like JC so much for what he does. And that is what distinguishes the high-end market from all the other 'copies' out there.
Hence I would not be so harsh with or even refrain from having discussions on repros here just because they lacked to be on duty during wartimes. I have had multiple originals in my collection but I always shied away from wearing them (also a sign of respect, personally I have to say). It has always been a great pleasure to wear an excellent repro instead and to know that only people of the same kind would ever notice the fine line of details. On that level of detail and background you can always have an excellent discussion with other experts (like e.g. recently with the Werber 1729) and that is what makes this forum and its members so unique and valuable. So thank you very much gents!

 

[MikeyB-17]

So what are we going to call it instead? I grant you that the increase in prices of original jackets has reduced the amount of ‘vintage’ traffic, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that we have become a discussion forum for cheap repros-yes, the advent of companies like Five Star and AVI has given people an opportunity to purchase a half reasonable repro that you don’t need a mortgage to be able to afford, and sorry, but that means people are going to discuss them. And the jackets these companies (and the high end ones as well) produce are reproductions of-vintage jackets. OK, the forum is called ‘Vintage leather jackets’, but I just think that encompasses a lot of areas, we talk about aircraft, tanks, guns, cars, motorbikes, and history-guys are putting up pics from WWII and other conflicts quite regularly-and all because that relates directly to jackets, and the men who wore them. And let’s face it, we don’t just talk about leather-cloth jackets also come into the mix, be it B-10’s, M-65’s or Harris tweed. Yet nobody says we should change the forum name because of that. It’s a shame that original wartime jackets are beyond most normal folks’ financial reach these days, so we don’t see as many any more, but I still think the forum’s entire ethos revolves around vintage jackets-we all know what happens if a newbie rocks up trying to find out about his ‘80’s thrift shop purchase-hardly anyone has anything to contribute, because we don’t know anything about them-or care tbh. Because we’re a vintage jacket forum! It’s a broad church, but I think Vintage leather jackets is as good a name as any.

 

[Kermit3D]

I am one of the "new members" of this forum.
I will just share "feelings" without trying to analyze ... indeed I know almost nothing about the history of this forum (and I just leave the restaurant, my brain activity gives way to digestion).


I imagine that it was often mentioned : I find it surprising that the topics of the forum are 98% oriented on military clothing (including 60% on the A-2 jacket). There is a lot to say about vintage civilian jackets (jackets for bikers, cyclists, workers, fashion history ...). Something I also notice is the nonexistence of topics on women's leather jackets (and the very low female presence).
I agree that subjects on vintage jackets (not reproductions) are relatively rare. And that's a shame.
This is by no means a "negative" review on this forum, just an observation.


And I have to be honest ...
I plead 100% guilty !

- I have no period jacket (only two reproductions)
- I am passionate about aviation history, so I naturally go to subjects reminiscent of WWII flight jackets.
- I have little knowledge to share here, so I feed off your knowledge without offering anything in return (like a vampire)!


That being said, I really enjoy spending time among the members of this forum ... and it's a good way to try and improve my English.

 

[Micawber]

1. Rightly or wrongly it's the nature of the beast.
2. All forums evolve, this one is no different.
3. People come and go.
4. Interests wax and wain.
5. Personalities and attitudes invite or repel newcomers, this is cyclical and the 'feel' of a forum is very much due to those actively involved with it at any given time. Speaking personally I have been involved using different, and forgotten usernames / passwords here and elsewhere in the past but jacked it in as the then current 'feel' didn't suit. This is certainly not the case now.
6. Not everyone likes to openly display or discuss the finer points of their wares.
7. Some of the biggest collectors and hoarders I've known have a marked aversion to publicising what they hold due to their personalities or entirely valid security concerns. Not everyone who collects 'old stuff' is an 'online' animal, some just can't be bothered.
8. They are not making original 'vintage' stuff any more! As collectors buy up the gear there is inevitably less in circulation for newcomers to get their teeth into.
9. All is not lost! Previous content and info is still available for those who care enough to seek it out. The search facility make this easy.
10. Struggling to think of a 10th point other than to state that most minority interest subjects are finite. There is only so much that can be discovered, disused, mulled over, contemplated, reviewed, revisited at any given time. Information that is unavailable today may come to light and prompt more discussion and research in future - who knows what the future may bring.
11. The only way to keep a forum 'on topic' is through the willingness of members and guidance of admin and moderators.
12. All the above are my personal observations based on several decades of online use and experience using then administrating and moderating forums, groups [over several platforms] on different subjects for over 20 years.
    
    
    
    

 

[B-Man2]

First off, I’d like to thank all of you for your responses . As I mentioned in the first post , one of the things that makes this forum a good one, is the freedom to express your opinions without having to feel intimidated or criticized for your thoughts on any issue . I enjoyed reading all of your responses so far and I can see we have a variety of thoughts on this topic . Thanks for posting guys .
Cheers